Supporters The Y Word

[Kosher Kid]

I totally disagree. If I honestly believed he was offended because he was Jewish, then I could understand your argument, but him blatantly pretending to be offended is something completely different. Or are you saying that ALL Jewish people are automatically offended by that word? Because I consider myself partly Jewish (my grandmother was Jewish), and I'm not offended by it... I'm not saying that no Jewish people are offended by it - I'm saying just that Baddiel isn't (in my opinion having heard him talk about it).

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Or are you saying that ALL Jewish people are automatically offended by that word?
No I am not saying that at all.

Some Jewish Spurs supporters are the most passionate about retaining the Y word.

What I am saying is that some Jewish Spurs supporters, and Jewish supporters of other teams playing Spurs, do not like the Y word and find it offensive.

I totally disagree. If I honestly believed he was offended because he was Jewish, then I could understand your argument, but him blatantly pretending to be offended is something completely different.

Unless you know David Baddiel personally you cannot claim to know he is "blatantly pretending to be offended" by the use of the Y word by ~Spurs supporters.

What if he was bullied as a child by racists?

Have you thought about that?

 

[scarletjim]

Or are you saying that ALL Jewish people are automatically offended by that word?
No I am not saying that at all.

Some Jewish Spurs supporters are the most passionate about retaining the Y word.

What I am saying is that some Jewish Spurs supporters, and Jewish supporters of other teams playing Spurs, do not like the Y word and find it offensive.

I totally disagree. If I honestly believed he was offended because he was Jewish, then I could understand your argument, but him blatantly pretending to be offended is something completely different.

Unless you know David Baddiel personally you cannot claim to know he is "blatantly pretending to be offended" by the use of the Y word by ~Spurs supporters.

What if he was bullied as a child by racists?

Have you thought about that?

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I can only assume that you've never heard him speak about this topic, and/or do not know much about him or his character.

That's fine - we don't have to agree. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who are sufficiently aware of what Baddiel is like and can see through his fake outrage.

 

[Kosher Kid]

I can only assume that you've never heard him speak about this topic, and/or do not know much about him or his character.

That's fine - we don't have to agree. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who are sufficiently aware of what Baddiel is like and can see through his fake outrage.

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I have listened to David Baddiel on this subject and I am not a fan of his comedy.

I always thought he was very lucky to have had a personal friendship with Frank Skinner when Skinner was in his pomp as a comedian.

Frank Skinner was clearly the funnier of the two and had more talent.

Baddiel clearly understands the reasons why Spurs supporters adopted the Y word and reclaimed it; because he is a Chelsea supporter.

I'm not here to vouch for Baddiel's character; I don't know him so I would be guessing.

It remains a fact that Baddiel is Jewish and claims to be offended by the Y word.

I can't control or know for sure what Baddiel thinks or what his motives for saying the things he does are.

I can only control what I say and think on this matter.

That is what I have done.

 

[scarletjim]

Yes, I can't disagree with any of that (neither have I done at any point in the conversation). But just because we don't know something for certain, it doesn't mean we can't make best guesses - no one in the world can see inside someone else's head, but most will still judge others by their words, their actions and their attitudes, and that's all I'm doing here. I'm simply saying that, using my character judgement as best I can, I don't believe Baddiel. You do. And that's fine.

 

[Kosher Kid]

Yes, I can't disagree with any of that (neither have I done at any point in the conversation). But just because we don't know something for certain, it doesn't mean we can't make best guesses - no one in the world can see inside someone else's head, but most will still judge others by their words, their actions and their attitudes, and that's all I'm doing here. I'm simply saying that, using my character judgement as best I can, I don't believe Baddiel. You do. And that's fine.

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My view has nothing to do with Baddiel's character.

It is based on the fact that Baddiel is Jewish and claims to be offended by the Y word.

I have personal experience of a Jewish person telling me they were offended by the Y word, at WHL, which left me with a dilemna and a decision which I have described.

My stance on Baddiel is clear. I do not know what he may really think about Spurs supporters singing the Y word. I only know what he has said. I also know he is Jewish.

From there; I have a choice about what I choose to say / sing or not.

Does that make sense?

 

[Larry David]

Baddiel is a complete cunt, the guy did blackface on national TV, tells you all you need to know about his character

He isn’t offended by the word, he’s annoyed we’ve turned a negative into a positive

 

[Kosher Kid]

Baddiel is a complete cunt, the guy did blackface on national TV, tells you all you need to know about his character

He isn’t offended by the word, he’s annoyed we’ve turned a negative into a positive

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Baddiel is a poor comedian.

I've always thought this.

 

[scarletjim]

My view has nothing to do with Baddiel's character.

It is based on the fact that Baddiel is Jewish and claims to be offended by the Y word.

I have personal experience of a Jewish person telling me they were offended by the Y word which left me with a dilemna and a decision which I have described.

My stance on Baddiel is clear. I do not know what he may really think about Spurs supporters singing the Y word. I only know what he has said. I also know he is Jewish.

From there; I have a choice what I choose to say / sing or not.

Does that make sense?

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Not to me, but perhaps to you. For me, experiences of other people that you keep talking about aren't relevant, we are not talking about them here, we are talking about David Baddiel - and personally I prefer to choose what I've seen of Baddiel's character to judge whether or not he is likely to be telling the truth. I then look at whether he could conceivably have ulterior motives for lying, and reach my conclusion that way. I guess it is up to each person whether they conclude only on what they definitely know, or also on what they perceive or judge from what they know. Pros and cons of each for sure.

So I can see how you reach your conclusion, and accept your right to get there the way you have - do you offer me the same courtesy? Hence can we agree to disagree?

 

[Kosher Kid]

Not to me, but perhaps to you. For me, experiences of other people that you keep talking about aren't relevant, we are not talking about them here, we are talking about David Baddiel - and personally I prefer to choose what I've seen of Baddiel's character to judge whether or not he is likely to be telling the truth. I then look at whether he could conceivably have ulterior motives for lying, and reach my conclusion that way. I guess it is up to each person whether they conclude only on what they definitely know, or also on what they perceive or judge from what they know. Pros and cons of each for sure. So I can see how you reach your conclusion, and accept your right to get there the way you have - do you offer me the same courtesy? Hence can we agree to disagree?

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I am not disagreeing with you at all.

This is an emotive subject where it is possible for there to be more than one correct answer.

Non Jewish Spurs supporters singing in solidarity with those being racially abused was spontaneous and correct in the 70's and 80's.

The club are now lobbying for something different; for all sorts of reasons.

I think the outcome of this is inevitable for that reason alone.

Y-word review - findings and next steps | Tottenham Hotspur

 

[scarletjim]

I am not disagreeing with you at all.

This is an emotive subject where it is possible for there to be more than one correct answer.

Non Jewish Spurs supporters singing in solidarity with those being racially abused was spontaneous and correct in the 70's and 80's.

The club are now lobbying for something different; for all sorts of reasons.

I think the outcome of this is inevitable for that reason alone.

Y-word review - findings and next steps | Tottenham Hotspur

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Well, your opening post to me began:

"I disagree"



But I know what you mean - we both at least appreciate where each other are coming from, and both recognise that there can be miltuiple contrasting but equally valid viewpoints - which in itself is a rarity around here, so thanks for that.

 

[scarletjim]

Right anyway I'm off to lobby Fenway Sports Group - if I can convince them that I have both ambulophobia and monophobia (and in modern society, they have no right to challenge this), and hence are 'offended' by their club song (they have no right to challenge that either), maybe I can get that awful droning dirge banned once and for all.

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

I can only assume that you've never heard him speak about this topic, and/or do not know much about him or his character.

That's fine - we don't have to agree. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who are sufficiently aware of what Baddiel is like and can see through his fake outrage.

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The bloke is a sex case and a self confessed bully. Utter cunt of a man.

 

[Bill Madrid]

My view has nothing to do with Baddiel's character.

It is based on the fact that Baddiel is Jewish and claims to be offended by the Y word.

I have personal experience of a Jewish person telling me they were offended by the Y word, at WHL, which left me with a dilemna and a decision which I have described.

My stance on Baddiel is clear. I do not know what he may really think about Spurs supporters singing the Y word. I only know what he has said. I also know he is Jewish.

From there; I have a choice about what I choose to say / sing or not.

Does that make sense?

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I think you and others make good points.

The one aspect I would add is that Baddiel had a moral obligation to recognize his own team's racism but seemed to more or less skirt the issue.

No mention of the hissing, the Auschwitz songs etc. The years of zieg heiling, the "proud to be racist", the "only white team in London" filth, the describing black Chelsea players as "our n*****s" and so on.

 

[McCOYS]

No mention of the hissing, the Auschwitz songs etc. The years of zieg heiling, the "proud to be racist", the "only white team in London" filth, the describing black Chelsea players as "our n*****s" and so on.

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It's also worth mentioning that people are socially ok with black people referring to themselves as a collective or as individual people using that word in songs, in films, comedians but it's not ok for Spurs fans to use the Y word in a similar context ie flipping it into a positive in a football chant about themselves.

Only a fool would think it's not tongue in cheek and a bit of reverse psychology.

 

[Kosher Kid]

It's also worth mentioning that people are socially ok with black people referring to themselves as a collective or as individual people using that word in songs, in films, comedians but it's not ok for Spurs fans to use the Y word in a similar context ie flipping it into a positive in a football chant about themselves.

Only a fool would think it's not tongue in cheek and a bit of reverse psychology.

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There will be some Spurs, and other, supporters who will have no idea what the Y word is all about. I wouldn't like to put a percentage on it but I would guess it would be less than 10 percent.

I'm talking about the tourists and maybe younger Spurs supporters who do not understand the history and context around the issue, for a variety of reasons.

The issue using the Y word in a modern context throws up, for match attending supporters, is the possibility of being referred to as a 'fcuking y1d' or similar by away supporters who may be using it in the same context as referring to Liverpool supporters as 'fcuking scousers' rather than as an anti semetic jibe.

Because the Y word has evolved into meaning more than one thing, to different groups of people, it has an ambiguity that could be exploited by those who are overtly racist.

It's a very difficult subject in all honesty.

The thing that may perpetuate this is Jewish Spurs supporters continuing to sing the Y word.

I cannot see how a Jewish person could be convicted of a hate crime for singing the Y word.

That criteria may not be applied to any non Jewish football supporter using the Y word and this is where it could be problematic for authorities wishing to enforce any rules around the use of the Y word.

The club will continue to lobby for a consensus on this in my opinion.

It's the direction of travel and difficult to imagine how time will not change how it is viewed.

 

[McCOYS]

There will be some Spurs, and other, supporters who will have no idea what the Y word is all about. I wouldn't like to put a percentage on it but I would guess it would be less than 10 percent.

I'm talking about the tourists and maybe younger Spurs supporters who do not understand the history and context around the issue, for a variety of reasons.

The issue using the Y word in a modern context throws up, for match attending supporters, is the possibility of being referred to as a 'fcuking y1d' or similar by away supporters who may be using it in the same context as referring to Liverpool supporters as 'fcuking scousers' rather than as an anti semetic jibe.

Because the Y word has evolved into meaning more than one thing, to different groups of people, it has an ambiguity that could be exploited by those who are overtly racist.

It's a very difficult subject in all honesty.

The thing that may perpetuate this is Jewish Spurs supporters continuing to sing the Y word.

I cannot see how a Jewish person could be convicted of a hate crime for singing the Y word.

That criteria may not be applied to any non Jewish football supporter using the Y word and this is where it could be problematic for authorities wishing to enforce any rules around the use of the Y word.

The club will continue to lobby for a consensus on this in my opinion.

It's the direction of travel and difficult to imagine how time will not change how it is viewed.

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I lifted this from Wikipedia;

''The word Yid (/ˈjiːd/; Yiddish: איד), also known as the Y-word,is a Jewish ethnonym of Yiddish origin. It is used as an autonym within the Ashkenazi Jewish community, and also used as slang by European football fans, antisemites, and others. Its usage may be controversial in modern English language.''

Why should we let the latter take the word from the former?

 

[78Spur]

There will be some Spurs, and other, supporters who will have no idea what the Y word is all about. I wouldn't like to put a percentage on it but I would guess it would be less than 10 percent.

I'm talking about the tourists and maybe younger Spurs supporters who do not understand the history and context around the issue, for a variety of reasons.

The issue using the Y word in a modern context throws up, for match attending supporters, is the possibility of being referred to as a 'fcuking y1d' or similar by away supporters who may be using it in the same context as referring to Liverpool supporters as 'fcuking scousers' rather than as an anti semetic jibe.

Because the Y word has evolved into meaning more than one thing, to different groups of people, it has an ambiguity that could be exploited by those who are overtly racist.

It's a very difficult subject in all honesty.

The thing that may perpetuate this is Jewish Spurs supporters continuing to sing the Y word.

I cannot see how a Jewish person could be convicted of a hate crime for singing the Y word.

That criteria may not be applied to any non Jewish football supporter using the Y word and this is where it could be problematic for authorities wishing to enforce any rules around the use of the Y word.

The club will continue to lobby for a consensus on this in my opinion.

It's the direction of travel and difficult to imagine how time will not change how it is viewed.

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I think David Baddiel should not be brought in to the debate, it's not for one person to decide what our fans should sing and it's always going to be devisive because he's a Chelsea fan, it allows 'whataboutism' which means it gets silly, it gives an excuse to those who do not want to change. Instead of addressing the 'Y' word issue objectively it allows you to look at some of the chants/abuse Chelsea fans have definitely been guilty of, the debate should always be if Spurs fan collectively think it's right or wrong.

I'm not completely happy with it because I believe some Jewish spurs fans are no longer comfortable with it and some Jews who have no affiliation to any football club find it offensive, even though they understand the context.

I'm a season ticket holder I've never told anyone around me not to chant it and I'm not offended by it myself but I do think, in the longer term, there will come a point where less fans chant it, everyone will have their own take on whether that's a good or bad thing.

 

[McCOYS]

I think David Baddiel should not be brought in to the debate, it's not for one person to decide what our fans should sing and it's always going to be devisive because he's a Chelsea fan, it allows 'whataboutism' which means it gets silly, it gives an excuse to those who do not want to change. Instead of addressing the 'Y' word issue objectively it allows you to look at some of the chants/abuse Chelsea fans have definitely been guilty of, the debate should always be if Spurs fan collectively think it's right or wrong.

I'm not completely happy with it because I believe some Jewish spurs fans are no longer comfortable with it and some Jews who have no affiliation to any football club find it offensive, even though they understand the context.

I'm a season ticket holder I've never told anyone around me not to chant it and I'm not offended by it myself but I do think, in the longer term, there will come a point where less fans chant it, everyone will have their own take on whether that's a good or bad thing.

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Who would care if English people chanted ''we are the Poms'' or ''Pomo'' when they play Australia or New Zealand in national sports events?

Would there be English people who find it offensive?

 

[78Spur]

Who would care if English people chanted ''we are the Poms'' or ''Pomo'' when they play Australia or New Zealand in national sports events?

Would there be English people who find it offensive?

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You're not comparing apples with apples, Judaism is a religion not a nationality and way more more sensitive because of all the conotations attached to that.

Honestly, if you want to find reasons to keep using the chant, it's your choice, I'm not stopping you, I'm just saying that some people without a dog in the fight find it offensive, even though they know why Spurs fan use it.

 

[dondo]

Who would care if English people chanted ''we are the Poms'' or ''Pomo'' when they play Australia or New Zealand in national sports events?

Would there be English people who find it offensive?

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Most Tottenham fans are not Jewish though