Racism would cover both religion and nationality within it's remit so my comparison hasn't been negated with your apples reply.
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Supporters The Y Word
- Thread starter Sonofa
- Start date
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But they seem to enjoy the indentity
Sorry I'm going out now so can't reply for a while.
I disagreed with the assertions made in the post below because nobody can claim to know what motivates another person to say the things they do.Well, your opening post to me began:
"I disagree"
But I know what you mean - we both at least appreciate where each other are coming from, and both recognise that there can be miltuiple contrasting but equally valid viewpoints - which in itself is a rarity around here, so thanks for that.
I don't disagree about what motivates all Spurs supporters to sing the Y word. It's not hate speach in this context.
Where it will become tricky is at the point people are challenged for singing the Y word.
I suspect that non Jewish Spurs supporters may be forced to refrain from singing the Y word should this happen.
You can choose your religion but you cannot choose your nationality, they're not the same.
Jewish identity has been an incredibly sensitive issue, there is a part of it in the history of Spurs 70s/80s where the use of the Y word was brave and a moment of solidarity against antisemitism, with time that perspective appears to be changing.
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I didn't say they are the same I said they both come within the range of racism thus, they are interchangeable during such a discussion.
Look I know Jews have had a history of persecution but I posted this earlier in the thread you may have missed it,
''The word Yid (/ˈjiːd/; Yiddish: איד), also known as the Y-word is a Jewish ethnonym of Yiddish origin. It is used as an autonym within the Ashkenazi Jewish community'' - Wikipedia.
It's a word used within the Jewish community to refer to themselves, in case you don't know what an autonym is here's a definition again from Wikipedia;
''An endonym /ˈɛndənɪm/ (also known as autonym /ˈɔːtənɪm/) is a common, native name for a group of people, individual person, geographical place, language, or dialect, meaning that it is used inside a particular group or linguistic community to identify or designate themselves, their place of origin, or their language''.
Let's be honest, I have my reasons for not using it and you have your reasons to think it's ok, agree to disagree.
Tbh anti semitism is rising
Sure but I don't use the term myself, I just don't think it warrants being banned from society or as our positive connotation football chant.
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Baddiel was born in 1964, so he'd have been on the terraces when Chelsea fans first started chanting Yids at Spurs fans in the 70's, along with the Auschwitz songs and the gas chamber hissing, yet he waits until 2013 to label Spurs fans as racist for using it as a badge of honour?
Where was his outrage 10, 20, 30 years before that when his own scumbag club ACTUALLY used it as a racist slur?
THAT tells you everything you will ever need to know about this filth. Using racism as a stick to beat a rival club, who used the word for positive affirmation, whilst giving his own stain of a club a pass for using the term in a fully racist term full of hate.
You don't need to know what's going on in his head, his actions are eloquent enough.
Where was his outrage 10, 20, 30 years before that when his own scumbag club ACTUALLY used it as a racist slur?
THAT tells you everything you will ever need to know about this filth. Using racism as a stick to beat a rival club, who used the word for positive affirmation, whilst giving his own stain of a club a pass for using the term in a fully racist term full of hate.
You don't need to know what's going on in his head, his actions are eloquent enough.
Don't conflate anti the murdering bastard Netanyahu with antisemitism.
This kind of isn't up for you to decide.
And I'm not saying you're wrong per-se, and i actually hear, appreciate and relate to what
McCOYS
is saying.As someone who grew up pretty orthodox, went to Jewish schools, got abused constantly when we played other local non Jewish teams in any sports.... chased down with knives on north London high roads for wearing my kippah - spat at, kicked, you name it.... when i was old enough to actually understand the whole Yid Army thing properly there was definitely a sense of comfort that came with that - supporting spurs, as a Jew, made sense....
Im not religious anymore, but my culture is my culture and the above still feels good and right, but I do have to agree with
Kosher Kid
here - my experience shaped my world in one way - others shaped their world in another - and perhaps protecting and sticking up for those who hearing Yid chanted gives them flashbacks of worse times, more stressful, hateful times, is hearing their wishes.It doesnt mean that someones desire to reclaim the word and turn a negative into a positive isn't just, or isn't them trying to be a good person, - its not about you as the individual who is chanting it and your reasons for doing so - it is about ensuring that the people who are around you that you are doing it for, actually want that.
We've reclaimed the word.
Same as LGBT people have reclaimed the word queer.
- Originally, “queer” meant “strange” or “peculiar”
- In the late 19th century, it became a slur used against LGBT people
- In the late 1980s, queer activists began to reclaim the word as a neutral or positive self-description
Like it or not we're known as a Jewish club. it doesn't matter IMO that not everyone who yells Yiddo is actually Jewish at the club. It's used and justified by association.
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Some do
And I agree with you that Baddiel is a hypocrite. he authored a book called 'Jews Don't Count'. I've not read it but I've read what it's about antisemitism and discrimination against Jews. As you say he doesn't condemn the antisemitic behaviour of Chelsea supporters against Spurs supporters, and towards Spurs in general, knowing full well that we have a large Jewish population in our fanbase. Yet he complains about Spurs fans using the Y word (which is done so with a positive connotation about ourselves).
I think I recall during our last match vs City coming through on the tv microphone some Spurs supporters yelling it at Kevin Danso as a gesture of appreciation. It's accompanied with joy and respect for the player, and it really means ''we've accepted you you're one of us'' it doesn't mean we think he's a Jew and we don't like it.
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It's a bit like black folks calling each other "n****r
Absolutely.
I was reading up on the evolution of language. It has a number of different names like Darwinian linguistics or diachronic process and highlights just how the meaning of certain words alters over time, and with how they are used.
I think that if you did a poll around this country, asking people what the word Yid meant to them, a high proportion would have Spurs, or Spurs supporters, as their first answer.
Its original entomology might well be in reference to Jews or "Yiddish," but I doubt that many of the younger generation, who are not Jewish themselves, would be fully aware of that. The word is pretty much synonymous with us Spurs fans now.
Even the Oxford English Dictionary
( since 2020 ) says so . See below ;
as reported by the BBC .
On a ( possibly contentious note ) that means it actually counts as a “ word “ in Scrabble.
Just saying.
Dictionary includes Spurs fans in Yid definition - BBC News
Often used against Jewish people as an offensive term, it can now also mean a Tottenham fan, the OED says.
www.bbc.co.uk
Hmmm, im not convinced.
Is every spurs fan who chants Yid doing it out of a desire to reclaim the word for the Jewish fans?
Are non-Jewish Spurs fans less antisemitic than non-Jewish other fans? Are Spurs fans less racist in general than other football fans - i highly doubt it. I spent a lot of time at Spurs in the 90s and mid 00's. There was a lot of questionable shit being said about people constantly. Also singing along to songs with the term Yid in it doesnt immediately make you a 'friend of the Jews'.
Let's be honest - it's a tribal thing for the most part now.
And look, again, like i said in my last post - some jews like it, some don't. I'm not here to judge either - just to give perspective.