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Guido 🇺🇦 said:

www.football365.com

Hayes shows the lazy foolishness in packing punditry studios with former players

Running 12km twice a week for 15 years should not instantly qualify anyone as a pundit. It's a specialist role, not a next step for ex-pros.
www.football365.com www.football365.com


Punditry should not just be a retirement home for ex-pros​

Date published: Wednesday 29th December 2021 1:09 - John Nicholson

Running 12km twice a week for 15 years should not instantly qualify anyone as a pundit. It’s a specialist role, not a next step for ex-pros.

Football broadcasting has gotten much better over the last 15 years, but it could still be radically improved. How? By not using so many ex-player pundits and by making punditry and co-commentary specialist artforms that people are trained to deliver.

Next time you’re watching football on TV or listening to it on the radio and the pundits start talking, close your eyes and concentrate. Are they saying anything that anyone else who knows anything about football could not say? Are they offering an insight unique only to them as ex-players? Are they articulating something that is not already commonly known or obvious? On TV, the co-comm is probably just describing what we can see with our own eyes. “He’s nearly got on the end of that”, “that was just a bit behind him” and “he’s hit the first man” are just three of hundreds of examples from this week alone. We get nothing from that.

It isn’t my intention to be beastly to the pundit-class; there’s enough of such unpleasantness online and I have no interest in adding to it by listing those who bring little entertainment and insight. It’s just that I often can’t see what they bring that an expert in the field couldn’t more successfully.

Need to know something about tactics and systems? Well there are proper specialists who can tell you everything about any tactic: how it works, who invented it, who has successfully deployed it in the past, how this version has been tweaked, how specific players work in it and why it is or isn’t successful on this occasion. And they can do so in a clear and articulate manner. They are not usually ex-players. A discussion on stats? Same situation. The stats industry is not staffed with ex-players, some of whom seem cynical about the worth of such analysis anyway.

All assessments of player movement, position and format does not require having run 12km twice a week for 15 years for a Premier League club. Anyone with eyes and an interest in the game can and does do it. Emma Hayes stands out as someone – possibly the only one – who does it as a co-comm and pundit. She also stands out as not having played professionally, going straight from college into coaching. There is no other TV matchday contributor who hasn’t been a player. Yet she is an example of someone who brings insight above and beyond what we might see for ourselves. She offers things to look for and is of a different standard altogether.

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I don't know if she has calmed down, but the last time she was part of the commentary on a game I watched she wouldn't shut up, I had to turn the volume off in the end as it was incessant and ultimately became fucking annoying
Notwithstanding the technical accuracy of what she had to say - people like to hear ex pro's observations, because it has the credibility of coming from someone who could actually do it.
Listening to someone who has never played at that level is virtually meaningless to me, because it has no real world credibility.
A balance needs to be found with ex pros who are bright and articulate, as well as having played at the highest level
 
Mick Cooper said:
I don't know if she has calmed down, but the last time she was part of the commentary on a game I watched she wouldn't shut up, I had to turn the volume off in the end as it was incessant and ultimately became fucking annoying
Notwithstanding the technical accuracy of what she had to say - people like to hear ex pro's observations, because it has the credibility of coming from someone who could actually do it.
Listening to someone who has never played at that level is virtually meaningless to me, because it has no real world credibility.
A balance needs to be found with ex pros who are bright and articulate, as well as having played at the highest level
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I totally and utterly disagree. There are few pundits in TV and radio studios who are ex-pros that speak with any authority about tactics, their understanding of the game lacks any credibility because of this. Those ex-pros who possess the ability to understand the game at the level required are all in coaching or DoF roles. It means the pool available is small (also many don't need to be in the media as they are multi-millionaire many times over).

It's one of the reasons I enjoy the World Cup coverage because once every 4 years some ex-pros come out of the woodwork to give their views. Seedorf & Vialli recently were utterly brilliant I seem to recall.

The worst manager I've ever played under (and I'm including my days playing for my school as well a pro/semi-pro environments) was Graham Roberts (when at Enfield) he was totally and utterly useless, the only thing he spoke about was "giving it to them" and even that was inspirational as it came across fake.

It's a real skill to be able to communicate.

Dare I also suggest that it's because she's a woman? I'm not deliberately trying to chuck around aspersions at you, just making the suggestion. I for instance really, really struggle to watch a game with a woman commentator, I've nothing against what she's saying, I am just still not used to listening to a female voice when watching football on the TV (I have many issues with what male commentators have to say as this thread would bear witness), it's just I find it wired, so it's on me not them.

FWIW I find her and Caragher the best two media pundits in the game in the UK. What do they see how it translates to the game and what needs to be done for the oppo to deal with etc... Neville is good once he's had the time to review the game but lacks the in-depth analysis of these two in real-time (they give you an insight to the game, and focus on the game not what the media wants with its obsession of was it wasn't it moments).
 
Guido 🇺🇦 said:
I totally and utterly disagree. There are few pundits in TV and radio studios who are ex-pros that speak with any authority about tactics, their understanding of the game lacks any credibility because of this. Those ex-pros who possess the ability to understand the game at the level required are all in coaching or DoF roles. It means the pool available is small (also many don't need to be in the media as they are multi-millionaire many times over).

It's one of the reasons I enjoy the World Cup coverage because once every 4 years some ex-pros come out of the woodwork to give their views. Seedorf & Vialli recently were utterly brilliant I seem to recall.

The worst manager I've ever played under (and I'm including my days playing for my school as well a pro/semi-pro environments) was Graham Roberts (when at Enfield) he was totally and utterly useless, the only thing he spoke about was "giving it to them" and even that was inspirational as it came across fake.

It's a real skill to be able to communicate.

Dare I also suggest that it's because she's a woman? I'm not deliberately trying to chuck around aspersions at you, just making the suggestion. I for instance really, really struggle to watch a game with a woman commentator, I've nothing against what she's saying, I am just still not used to listening to a female voice when watching football on the TV (I have many issues with what male commentators have to say as this thread would bear witness), it's just I find it wired, so it's on me not them.

FWIW I find her and Caragher the best two media pundits in the game in the UK. What do they see how it translates to the game and what needs to be done for the oppo to deal with etc... Neville is good once he's had the time to review the game but lacks the in-depth analysis of these two in real-time (they give you an insight to the game, and focus on the game not what the media wants with its obsession of was it wasn't it moments).
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It has nothing to do with her sexual orientation, and you can disagree all you like about what I find credible, because it's my opinion, and what I believe.
I DID NOT say that only people who have been and done it can either explain tactics or coach the game - that's you not reading what I wrote, and then attacking me over something I didn't say.
My comments about her was her verbal diahorreah, and an inability to shut up and let people watch the game, I ceased to listen because she was overloading the commentary.

However, as a general issue, the public like to hear what pro's have to say about the game, because they have been there and done it. If i had every coaching badge available, I wouldn't have as much gravitas as a world cup winners medal holder

I fully understand that footballers don't necessarily make good managers/coaches - some of them can barely string a sentence together, let alone articulate the nuances of the game. Couple that with the ability to motivate, lead manage the expectations of said half wits and encourage multi millionaires to put a shift in are skill that people have to have a gift for - not learn on a training course.
 
Mick Cooper said:
It has nothing to do with her sexual orientation, and you can disagree all you like about what I find credible, because it's my opinion, and what I believe.
I DID NOT say that only people who have been and done it can either explain tactics or coach the game - that's you not reading what I wrote, and then attacking me over something I didn't say.
My comments about her was her verbal diahorreah, and an inability to shut up and let people watch the game, I ceased to listen because she was overloading the commentary.

However, as a general issue, the public like to hear what pro's have to say about the game, because they have been there and done it. If i had every coaching badge available, I wouldn't have as much gravitas as a world cup winners medal holder

I fully understand that footballers don't necessarily make good managers/coaches - some of them can barely string a sentence together, let alone articulate the nuances of the game. Couple that with the ability to motivate, lead manage the expectations of said half wits and encourage multi millionaires to put a shift in are skill that people have to have a gift for - not learn on a training course.
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Well, let's just disagree.

I could listen to her talk about a game of football above 95% of most media pundits, IMO she has one of the best technical views in the media today and I wish she jacked in her job at Chavs so they would stop winning almost everything there is in the women's game and we'll benefit and learn something from her assessments.

I deliberately stream my matches without English commentary these days as it completely ruins the game I'm watching due to it being so poor. I want the noise of the fans but my handle on foreign languages is almost nonexistent so I've not a clue what's being said, I, therefore, can use my own interpretation without the nonsense of a stat overload and was it a pen or wasn't it a pen bullshit.
 
Guido 🇺🇦 said:
Well, let's just disagree.

I could listen to her talk about a game of football above 95% of most media pundits, IMO she has one of the best technical views in the media today and I wish she jacked in her job at Chavs so they would stop winning almost everything there is in the women's game and we'll benefit and learn something from her assessments.

I deliberately stream my matches without English commentary these days as it completely ruins the game I'm watching due to it being so poor. I want the noise of the fans but my handle on foreign languages is almost nonexistent so I've not a clue what's being said, I, therefore, can use my own interpretation without the nonsense of a stat overload and was it a pen or wasn't it a pen bullshit.
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With the majority of them, I wholeheartedly agree - and don't have your grasp of the tactics that people jabber on about. Whilst I have no doubt that coaches play to a general formation and plan, like wars, the plan survives right up to when the bullets start flying. The beautiful thing about humans is that they have a wonderful habit of doing the unexpected, so it's my belief that the majority of the tactical grasp that people are so keen to show, is a large amount of wishful thinking.
As I tried to persuade BC - football is a sport, not a science, and there is too much human genius, fallibility , emotion and failure to contend with, to ever be able to produce a master plan that wins every game, most of which are won by the fastest, fittest and most skilful assembly of players.

Irrespective of the qualities and qualifications that you talk about, I would spend hours listening to Glen Hoddle read the sports pages than listen to 10 minutes of Hayes commentate on a world cup final.

Because I watched that guy produce magic on a regular basis, so to me, his words bear more weight than hers ever will.

(To me)
 
B-0-Sspurs said:
Spot on!

Last night it was multiple 'they should be doing better'

A few minutes later came the multiple 'betters'

What a bell end, not as bad as Owen, mcmanam or Smith but not far behind
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I'm not going to give you a disagree, but Andy Townsend is my most hated, I think. It's hard for me to admit that he's not as bad as anyone, because he's such a complete knob. Spurs could be winning 10-0 and he'd still find a reason not to give us credit or admit that we were playing well.
 
Guido 🇺🇦 said:
I totally and utterly disagree. There are few pundits in TV and radio studios who are ex-pros that speak with any authority about tactics, their understanding of the game lacks any credibility because of this. Those ex-pros who possess the ability to understand the game at the level required are all in coaching or DoF roles. It means the pool available is small (also many don't need to be in the media as they are multi-millionaire many times over).

It's one of the reasons I enjoy the World Cup coverage because once every 4 years some ex-pros come out of the woodwork to give their views. Seedorf & Vialli recently were utterly brilliant I seem to recall.

The worst manager I've ever played under (and I'm including my days playing for my school as well a pro/semi-pro environments) was Graham Roberts (when at Enfield) he was totally and utterly useless, the only thing he spoke about was "giving it to them" and even that was inspirational as it came across fake.

It's a real skill to be able to communicate.

Dare I also suggest that it's because she's a woman? I'm not deliberately trying to chuck around aspersions at you, just making the suggestion. I for instance really, really struggle to watch a game with a woman commentator, I've nothing against what she's saying, I am just still not used to listening to a female voice when watching football on the TV (I have many issues with what male commentators have to say as this thread would bear witness), it's just I find it wired, so it's on me not them.

FWIW I find her and Caragher the best two media pundits in the game in the UK. What do they see how it translates to the game and what needs to be done for the oppo to deal with etc... Neville is good once he's had the time to review the game but lacks the in-depth analysis of these two in real-time (they give you an insight to the game, and focus on the game not what the media wants with its obsession of was it wasn't it moments).
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…It’s because she is Chelsea Scum 👍

There was a documentary series on Channel 4 years and years ago. Manageress was Gabriella Benson. Bloody brilliant it was 😉. Never missed it. Great stuff, no Chelsea. So it can only be a Chelsea issue.
 
Another poor co commentator on now

Jermaine Jenas with another boring voice
 
NewZealand_Spur said:

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/18vensb/phil_blacker_and_efan_ekoku_laughing_at_veliz/

Hilarious, Efan. Is it because he is Spurs or Argentinian?

Why do they always find the most anti Spurs co-commentator for our matches week after week? Beglin, Townsend and for the second time in a week we have Ekoku.
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I watched this stream. Couldn't believe it when they joked about it. Earlier in the game when Solanke was down injured, they nearly were putting the flags at half mast
 
Calgary Spur said:
I'm not going to give you a disagree, but Andy Townsend is my most hated, I think. It's hard for me to admit that he's not as bad as anyone, because he's such a complete knob. Spurs could be winning 10-0 and he'd still find a reason not to give us credit or admit that we were playing well.
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"If that had gone in it would have been a goal".

Adds absolutely nothing. Just tells you what you had just seen with your own eyes.
 
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