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Thanks but no thanks.
I'm not on here to lecture anyone either. As I say if people want to use the word Yid then fair enough, I just won't be using it anymore to describe myself re being a Spur. And if anyone calls me that down the pub or wherever from now on, I'm going to disassociate myself from that label.
I agree with the premise but it falls down with the analogy to Spurs.
We're not a Jewish club, so there's no need for us to wear that particular mini-skirt.
Seems kind of absurd mate. Just sounds like you've got a hardon for this Herbert bloke and you want something to blame him for.
I'm Jewish, I love the fact that in the face of adversity across Europe, Spurs supporters associate Yid in a positive manner. After all the history of anti-semitism in europe as well as history of anti-semitism in soccer, I find it fantastic that supporters feel this way. Its one of the reasons I started supporting Tottenham in the first place
If we were to give up Yid, it would only affect us, not them. If we were to give up Yid, our culture changes, not theirs. Like it or not, we are labeled as a Jewish club and associated with the word Yid, positive or negative. I'm young, (still in mid-teens, non-Jewish, living in a non football household and community) and support everything i've learned and researched into the term Yid and the Yid army. I might be entirely wrong, but i see the origin of the word Yid to help us through this. We turned a racial slur into a positive accepting term. We should keep using the word Yid because it is Tottenham. It is our history.
To be decided...in the next thread!
Fair enough Sanchez, each to their own.
But the fact is we're not a Jewish club, we've never been a Jewish club, and IMHO we never will be a Jewish club.
We're an English club in origin, playing in England. We have support from all over the world, the VAST MAJORITY OF WHICH ISN'T JEWISH.
We are Tottenham Hotspur
That's Tottenham in London, England or Britain/UK if you prefer.
That's Hotspur as in a famous Englishman from our country's past.
Yid isn't our history, it's a part of our history. None of our great players or managers have been Jewish, AFAIK. Most of our supporters aren't Jewish. The Jewish population has contributed greatly to our club, and all power to them. But non-Jewish English and British, have contributed, far, far, more.
Seems like there's been a new migration if people that haven't been here for one yet.
You're misunderstanding my point. It doesn't matter what is our history or isn't our history. It doesn't matter what do whether we continue the Yid tradition or not, what others will perceive is that we are a Jewish club, true or not.
Whether we are a Jewish club or not, it does not matter. What others think is that we are, and from this we are being persecuted. Yid is a big part of our history and our club, i think we should continue with it, and look to it for these times. We turned Yid from a negative racial slur to a positive motivating term. We should look to do this again. From this we should reinvent Yid, again, we should refer to ourselves as Yids even more. Someone calls you a Yid, be proud. This is the only way, look to our history, our YID history.
Yeah, I know, fair enough really. But that does mean one thing: we are owed a serious amount of tits.
Btw Greaves, although I understand what you're saying about Jewishness not being an intrinsic part of this club's identity, can I also say that I'm not comfortable with the club being linked to "white, Protestant, Englishness". Tottenham Hotspur doesn't have a skin colour. And if it's intrinsically English where does that leave Danny Blanchflower, Dave Mackay, Ricky Villa, etc, and all the Spurs supporters from abroad. And if the club isn't intrinsically Jewish, how is it intrinsically Protestant?
No, you're misunderstanding my point. My point is that we're NOT a Jewish club, it's OUR ENGLISH and BRITISH history that's far more important than our Jewish history.
We should stop calling ourselves Yids IMHO and should start to reclaim terms like Tottenham and Spurs which are far more central to our history,
It matters very much whether we are a Jewish club or not, and we're NOT.
Look to our history, our ENGLISH and BRITISH history.
You're clinging to a false notion of our history and that is misleading you.
I'm not saying the club is just White English Protestant, what I'm saying is that it's far MORE that than Jewish.
My all-time heroes are Greaves, English, Mackay, Scottish, Jennings Northern Irish, Jones, Welsh, and Hoddle English. I'm a bit old to have heroes now, but my favourite current players are Lloris, French, Bale, Welsh, Dawson, English, Dempsey, American. Though I'm losing faith in Clint and might swap him with a half English-half German, Holtby.
There are no Jewish people in that list, English and British players have contribued far more to our playing heritage than Jewish players.
Indeed Argentinans, Brazilians, Germans even Bulgarians have contributed more, so it's ridiculous to see us as a Jewish club, when
NO GREAT PLAYERS are Jewish, NO GREAT MANAGERS are Jewish, MOST of our support is non-Jewish.
As you say, Tottenham Hotspur doesn't have a skin colour, so let's stop this Yid nonsense.
I support Spurs, not the Jewish culture. I get along perfectly well with Jewish people, but I'm an English atheist, if I want to support a Jewish club, I'll support Maccabi or whoever. I don't have much idea about Jewish clubs, BTW, but I think they're one.
In fact these days I'm more a Spurs loving atheist than I am English, because I'm pretty disillusioned with being English. Mind you I'm pretty disillusioned with a lot of Spurs fans, so maybe I should just call myself an atheist who loves literature and philosophy, then again ...
I would say overall Spurs are intrinsically linked to Englishness because we're an English club. I assume Lyon think they're intrinsically linked to Frenchness because they're a French club. Madrid with Spain, Barcelona with Catalonia, etc.
But just as Madrid are not just a Spanish club, neither are we just an English or British club.
I sometimes wonder if Man U are an English club at all, but that's another debate
English/British/Jewish are not mutually exclusive. There have been Jews in England in large numbers since the early 1800s. I'd wager that Tottenham had a proportionately large number of Jewish residents at some point in the middle of the 20th century, and around then other London clubs started to spout shit. Whats funny is that at varying times all kinds of Jewish communities existed all over London. The East End was a hub of the Jewish community for a long time.
If you're trying to harken back to our founding by Protestant Englishmen, well, look at every single other club in England. Same story.
The Jewish connection came later, of course. We all know that. I'd wager that most Jewish people in London who follow ANY club would identify as English. You seem to be a bit confused about nationality versus ethnic heritage/religion.
Hi PMP, I'm very confused about nationality versus ethnic heritage/religion, which is one of the issues I'm trying to unpick in this debate.
If you say you are a Jew, does that mean that's what you identify with most? Jewish culture/heritage etc,
If you say you are an English or British Jew then presumably you're identifying with a country as well as the Jewish culture.
I guess similar debates go for Catholics/Protestants/Muslims, whatever.
If we say we're a Jewish club, which we're clearly not, what would be saying about ourselves? That we believe in the Old Testament, the Torah, that we don't work on the Sabbath.
Seriously, how many Spurs fans that call themselves Yids know who Job was, or can name the first 5 books of the OT, etc, etc
I might do that next time I meet a 'Yid' down the pub, start questioning him/her on Baal or the Sacred Tetragrammaton, etc. Let's see how far this 'Yiddishness' goes.
If you say you are a Jew, does that mean that's what you identify with most? Jewish culture/heritage etc,
If you say you are an English or British Jew then presumably you're identifying with a country as well as the Jewish culture.
I guess similar debates go for Catholics/Protestants/Muslims, whatever.
If we say we're a Jewish club, which we're clearly not, what would be saying about ourselves? That we believe in the Old Testament, the Torah, that we don't work on the Sabbath.
Seriously, how many Spurs fans that call themselves Yids know who Job was, or can name the first 5 books of the OT, etc, etc
I might do that next time I meet a 'Yid' down the pub, start questioning him/her on Baal or the Sacred Tetragrammaton, etc. Let's see how far this 'Yiddishness' goes.
Well, I would argue nationality isn't even mutually exclusive, let alone nationality and religion or ethnicity. Yeah, you can be black, Muslim, and British. But you can also be Jamaican and British, Australian and Japanese, whatever. Nationality isn't a tangible reality like your blood being red, after all.
Anyway, one thing I agree with you on Greaves is that the yid thing doesn't indicate any actual inclination to associate with the Jewish religion. Of course not. But don't forget, it was fans of other clubs that started flinging the anti-Semitic abuse at us, because northeast London did have a significant Jewish population (and in fact Stamford Hill still does IMO, which is next door to Tottenham). So it's not like our fans came up with this thing themselves, they turned it back on the racists, which I find quite a nice show of solidarity.
Nowadays though it's just a rallying cry and it basically means nothing. In that sense, you're right - it's just become a way of saying "Spurs" really, and "Spurs" is better than "yids".
Fucking hell I can't resist, can I.
Anyway, one thing I agree with you on Greaves is that the yid thing doesn't indicate any actual inclination to associate with the Jewish religion. Of course not. But don't forget, it was fans of other clubs that started flinging the anti-Semitic abuse at us, because northeast London did have a significant Jewish population (and in fact Stamford Hill still does IMO, which is next door to Tottenham). So it's not like our fans came up with this thing themselves, they turned it back on the racists, which I find quite a nice show of solidarity.
Nowadays though it's just a rallying cry and it basically means nothing. In that sense, you're right - it's just become a way of saying "Spurs" really, and "Spurs" is better than "yids".
Fucking hell I can't resist, can I.
This thread is going around in circles. Don't know how often I've read that our greatest players were not Jewish, but I'm getting pretty bored of it. Just repeating yourself will not change peoples opinions Greaves. This is one of those debates that will never end, personally if someone asks me what team I support, I say Spurs or Tottenham. Mostly the reply to this is something to do with me being a Yid, so even though I have not used this word it is associated with our club and I'm pretty sure it'll stay like that for the foreseeable future even if we as a fan base stop using it.