Summer 2020 Transfer Thread

[bus-conductor]

I am not saying we could have had Brandt. I understand the appeal for German players of playing in the BuLi. What I am doing is using the example of a genuinely cerebral player to see how Pepe measures up in that department. One is an artist. The other is a bumbler.

Isn't this exactly where we came in, and where you and Todd started busting my fucking balls. Because I said we need more intelligence?

One is an artist. The other is a bumbler.

If they both went for £72m, which of them would you prefer?
And putting Brandt aside, was Pepe value for money at £72m?

You are talking as if there is no value to be had out there. Quite clearly, there is. But we have become atrocious at finding it.

You mean value like Fekir at 20m Eur? Who, by the way, can also play as a 9.

I agree we have recruited poorly. And we could find better value. But as I have also said to you privately, you have to be wary of recruiting players who look good in a system, that isn't ours.

I think value is harder to find in attacking players that have proven some ability to produce in a major league.

You seem to think there are a plethora of cerebral attacking payers out there with zero bumble, who will score and assist us 25 goals a season and press like nutters for 90 minutes.

You are being unrealistic. You have to accept there will invariably be compromises and try to balance those compromises with your ethos and squad blend.

Name me all these bargain attacking players that we could have realistically brought in, who would have guaranteed to improve us. And this shouldn't be hard with our bunch of fuckwit bumblers.

 

[bus-conductor]

I would prefer not to replace flawed players with more deeply flawed players.

Again, nearly every player we sign will come with flaws. But I would rather have a flawed player with a brain and productivity than one without.

Their judgement is not bulletproof up there. You raved about Keita before they signed him. Looks like he is surplus to requirements.

If Keita's their biggest fuck up of late, they are doing pretty well. I'd still take Keita here all day long. Very good midfielder who can do a bit of everything pretty well, who just hasn't been able to disrupt Klopp's preferred format/player combo yet.

Fekir would be a strange fit for a team like Liverpool, who are more about intensity than anything else.

In the same way the Mahrez would seem like a strange fit for Guardiola. Even the most idiosyncratic and systematic coaches can sometimes accommodate a slightly more maverick option - if they have something unique to their blend.

But maybe you are just a little bit harsh about Fekir's work rate. Sure, he's not Mane, but I watched plenty of games where he was dragging Lyon along, constantly getting on the ball and terrorising opponents, and was working reasonably well off the ball. I don't think he was anywhere near as bad or lazy as someone like Grealish for example, who is fucking atrocious, and Fekir would be cheaper and a fuck of a lot better.

I'd sacrifice all that if the system were everything, like say with a Nagelsmann, but that's not us right now, or even close.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

 

[Brian Fantana]

Tottenham manager Jose Mourinho has earmarked Chelsea ace Willian as one of his priority targets ahead of the next transfer window. Spurs could face a problem in attempting to secure the 31-year-old winger’s signature on a free transfer at the start of July, however. He is out of contract at Chelsea on June 30 but the coronavirus pandemic has raised the possibility of staying at Stamford Bridge until the 2019/20 season officially ends.

Jose Mourinho earmarks Chelsea star as priority Tottenham target

Tottenham manager Jose Mourinho is eager to raid former club Chelsea but the coronavirus outbreak could hamper his plans.

www.express.co.uk

Nah

 

[ElTel]

Back up for Harry Some amazing goals tbf

 

[todd1882]

But before players learn footballing technique, they learn. They learn to problem solve. To overcome issues to get what and where they want. To navigate. To read their environment. They do this before they can even walk, let alone control a football.

Jeez, you are reaching. I've done all that and shitloads of formal education/learning but just putting me in Stevie Ray Vaughn's boots for a week ain't gonna have me banging out Pride and Joy tomorrow while singing it.

Your Eriksen example perfectly makes my case for me.

No it doesn't.

You are right, of course, about his technique under extreme pressure of an opponent in close proximity. In those scenarios his technique could often be no better than the likes of Alli, Moura, Son etc. And what makes him an even more perfect case study for my theory, is that he wasn't a great athlete either.

Being a great athlete has nothing to do with it and he is still not a perfect case study in your favor. Dani Parejo is an absolutely shit athlete but always has time on the ball because his technique is flawless and were he put into the same situation vs. City that CE was he would not have choked like that. Eriksen choked because of his glaring technical deficiency, the inability to hold against pressure.

But why do we not think of Eriksen so much in this way, why do we not really look back and think of him as one of the chief bumblers? As a lazy fucker?

Our team was setup such that CE was afforded time and space and that is why some misguided folks believe him to be a better all around player than he ever was or will be. But I ask you how do folks look upon CE in the 18+ post Dembele and Wanyama fitting into our CM2? Well, that's a different CE isn't it? His technique cannot buy him the time and space that he needs and he looked like the rest of the 'bumblers'.

Because what lifted Eriksen up above those players as a consistent contributor to our play, ( and some capable of pure technical moments far greater than Eriksen's technical abilities - like Son being able to dribble 80 yards past a number of opponents etc), for much of the time was his superior intelligence.

Nope, it was the time and space afforded to him by the setup. He didn't look so superiorly intelligent in the last 18 months did he? Time and space that his technique nor all the running in the world could not win him.

And for your other posts, the point of debate was 'brains' being our biggest problem in attack. Try to keep it germane BC. Again, I understand why you'd want to go off-topic but I have no interest in that.

 

[todd1882]

One of the most efficient recruitment teams in Europe over the last 4 years or so said he was worth signing for 40m.

Has Betis' recruitment been that good? I wouldn't say they've been better than their neighbors.

 

[todd1882]

Do you really think Klopp/Liverpool would have been remotely interested in him if he was the idle loafer who only turns up once a month, you think he is?

Would you stop this argument. Klopp wanted Coutinho to stay, didn't want (or didn't think he would be good) Salah (both of whom I think are rubbish anyway), and many other shitty decisions that he mentions. This appeal to authority is crap BC. Defend your points with your rationales not this fallacy. they didn't see him as value for money and he is not there. You don't know what they would have paid but you do have supporting evidence that 40-50M was too much becuase they didn't buy. We know that the wider market felt he was worth 20M. I would love for 1 of our rivals to blow 50M on him.

And finally you don't know if he would have been a success or 'flop' like Keita where there are reports of them looking to sell. And so they've bought 2 Rangnick players (feel free to correct) but 1 is a 'flop' and the other has played like 200 minutes and was a flyer. Not really the strongest case to be made here.

 

[bus-conductor]

Jeez, you are reaching. I've done all that and shitloads of formal education/learning but just putting me in Stevie Ray Vaughn's boots for a week ain't gonna have me banging out Pride and Joy tomorrow while singing it.


No it doesn't.


Being a great athlete has nothing to do with it and he is still not a perfect case study in your favor. Dani Parejo is an absolutely shit athlete but always has time on the ball because his technique is flawless and were he put into the same situation vs. City that CE was he would not have choked like that. Eriksen choked because of his glaring technical deficiency, the inability to hold against pressure.


Our team was setup such that CE was afforded time and space and that is why some misguided folks believe him to be a better all around player than he ever was or will be. But I ask you how do folks look upon CE in the 18+ post Dembele and Wanyama fitting into our CM2? Well, that's a different CE isn't it? His technique cannot buy him the time and space that he needs and he looked like the rest of the 'bumblers'.


Nope, it was the time and space afforded to him by the setup. He didn't look so superiorly intelligent in the last 18 months did he? Time and space that his technique nor all the running in the world could not win him.

And for your other posts, the point of debate was 'brains' being our biggest problem in attack. Try to keep it germane BC. Again, I understand why you'd want to go off-topic but I have no interest in that.

Firstly it takes intelligence to understand the importance of technique and hone it. I do believe that the two facets are often intrinsically linked. But not always.

Secondly you can still have great technical ability but not be a great footballer. Look at someone like Adel Taraabt. Wonderful technical ability, lacking in intelligence to make it as an elite footballer. Ben Arfa. Or even your boy Renato Sanches, clearly has technical ability, what's let him down thus far is (footballing) intelligence, his decision making, especially under duress.

And footballing intelligence is not just about what you are doing when you actually have the ball at your feet. How do you ignore this? Reading the game/play and reacting whether you are in possession or out of possession requires intelligence. The more intelligent (in the footballing sense) the better you will read, interpret and react, the better your subsequent actions will be.

 

[bus-conductor]

Has Betis' recruitment been that good? I wouldn't say they've been better than their neighbors.

I was talking about Liverpool's.

 

[todd1882]

I had a good look at Kabak's performance against RBL from a while back, and decided to put together a few clips of some of the things he did/didn't do that gave me cause for concern. He is wearing #4.

You posted without commentary. And while doing so remember that he is 19 here.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

You posted without commentary. And while doing so remember that he is 19 here.

Yes, I know he is young, but transfermarkt have whacked a heck of a value on him, and I want to know what people who have seen more of him than I have have to say.

Do you want me to add comments?

 

[todd1882]

I was talking about Liverpool's.

Yes, and I was making the point that he's not there so,

...
One of the most efficient recruitment teams in Europe over the last 4 years or so said he was worth signing for 40m.
...

this is not true. In fact, their actions said he was NOT worth signing for 40M and the market spoke a year later saying that he was in fact worth signing for circa 20M.

 

[todd1882]

Yes, I know he is young, but transfermarkt have whacked a heck of a value on him, and I want to know what people who have seen more of him than I have have to say.

Do you want me to add comments?

Sure. There are 'mistakes' but most would be expected to be ironed out with experience. The problem is when experience players still make the same ones...like Jan. Think back to how many times he's gone 'low' and allowed a left footer to cut inside. Whereas Toby shepherds one way...the way he would like the player to go. But now even he's losing that. But it'd be interesting to see what you like and didn't.

 

[bus-conductor]

Would you stop this argument. Klopp wanted Coutinho to stay, didn't want (or didn't think he would be good) Salah (both of whom I think are rubbish anyway), and many other shitty decisions that he mentions. This appeal to authority is crap BC. Defend your points with your rationales not this fallacy. they didn't see him as value for money and he is not there.

Firstly, when it comes to recruitment, Everything we've read and heard suggests the recruitment analysts and scouts almost certainly drove the interest in Fekir more than Klopp.

And the reason I think this is a valid part of the argument is that you and me both think their recruitment team has been one of the best around in the last few years. And their model is certainly not about lazy fat fuckers who can't be arsed most weeks.

You don't know what they would have paid but you do have supporting evidence that 40-50M was too much becuase they didn't buy. We know that the wider market felt he was worth 20M. I would love for 1 of our rivals to blow 50M on him.

I'm surprised. I thought you valued intellectual honesty. You know the summer before he was valued at way more than 20m. Most reports have the fee closer to 60m Euro (52/53m GB)

Why Fekir's £52m Liverpool move collapsed and what future holds

Looking back on the Nabil Fekir transfer saga of 2018 and what it means for Liverpool's recruitment this summer

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

It was after the medical that there were reports Liverpool tried to renegotiate to something around 40-45m. Still double 20m.

He moved for 20m a year later having just one year left on his contract at Lyon, and the knee issue still tarnishing his value.

And finally you don't know if he would have been a success or 'flop' like Keita where there are reports of them looking to sell. And so they've bought 2 Rangnick players (feel free to correct) but 1 is a 'flop' and the other has played like 200 minutes and was a flyer. Not really the strongest case to be made here.

I don't think just because Keita hasn't nailed a first team place down at Liverpool that makes him a bad player or badly recruited logic. I'd happily take him at Spurs of they are moving him on.

And no I don't know that he would have been a success, I didn't claim that, my point was that one of the best recruitment machines in football right now, evaluated him and wanted to sign him for a team that has a very good footballing ethos.

it suggests I'm not a complete nutcase in thinking he could be viable.

 

[bus-conductor]

Yes, and I was making the point that he's not there so,

this is not true. In fact, their actions said he was NOT worth signing for 40M and the market spoke a year later saying that he was in fact worth signing for circa 20M.

No, it wasn't their actions, they tried to negotiate a reduction from the 60 to 40m, that was refused, that's why he didn't join. Not because Liverpool refused, otherwise why were they negotiating? They were negotiating because they still wanted the player, despite medical issues.

 

[bus-conductor]

I had a good look at Kabak's performance against RBL from a while back, and decided to put together a few clips of some of the things he did/didn't do that gave me cause for concern. He is wearing #4.

What are your thoughts on Todibo. I flagged him after the first time I watched him for Toulouse as looking very promising for an 18yo kid, this was at the start of 18/19, before I realised he was refusing to sign a new deal because he'd got a sniff that Barca were interested in him.

https://thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/players-worth-keeping-an-eye-on-playing-for-other-clubs.28262/page-7#post-1622877

I watched him about 5 times but I have seen virtually nothing of him since, at Barca or Schalke. If you have a link to any Schalke games with him in, can you let me have it also.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

Sure. There are 'mistakes' but most would be expected to be ironed out with experience. The problem is when experience players still make the same ones...like Jan. Think back to how many times he's gone 'low' and allowed a left footer to cut inside. Whereas Toby shepherds one way...the way he would like the player to go. But now even he's losing that. But it'd be interesting to see what you like and didn't.

I only included stuff I did not like. He was rolled inside his penalty area, he dived in outside the box (and ended up on his bum), he allowed Werner to cut inside on his stronger right foot and hammer one into the net, he got caught ballwatching and allowed Schick a 1 v1 with his keeper, and he showed some very poor reactions in terms of getting across to close the space between himself and his right-back. There were other smaller errors.

He has reasonable pace and his use of the ball is decent. I will watch a few more games to get a better idea.

I see Tanganga is making mistake after mistake. And what I am trying to figure out is how to accurately gauge the ceiling of a young CB. I will take any pointers.

Also, I have been looking at Supamecano closely over the last 3 days and I have a question for you about him. Do you think he takes unnecessary risks in possession? And if you do, why do you think he does? Does he get bored?

I am very disappointed because Gabriel is said to have passed Everton's medical and he can go there for €30m. He has interest from one other PL club (Leicester). He has not yet made a decision.

I think he is an animal. Phenomenal athlete. So strong, quick, great leap. He won't let you get turned. Covers the width of the pitch. Fully in control of his limbs.

 

[RESPECT THE COCK]

What are your thoughts on Todibo.

I have never seen him play.

I have seen virtually nothing of him since, at Barca or Schalke. If you have a link to any Schalke games with him in, can you let me have it also.

I will see if I can dig something out.

I mentioned this to you before, but I have seen Saliba in action a couple of times, and he made an instant impression on me. A powerhouse with ridiculous pace, and he looked to me like he has supreme quality on the ball. I fear Woolwich have something special on their hands.

 

[bus-conductor]

I have never seen him play.

I will see if I can dig something out.

I mentioned this to you before, but I have seen Saliba in action a couple of times, and he made an instant impression on me. A powerhouse with ridiculous pace, and he looked to me like he has supreme quality on the ball. I fear Woolwich have something special on their hands.

Apparently Mourinho wants Godin...

I am pretty despondent about shit like this now. Sure we made mistakes in the market, but a few years ago we were at least mainly making them for the right reasons. Buck for buck we probably had one of the better transfer policies 10-5 years ago, in terms of value hunting, it's what helped us climb the greasy pole.

We are one of the first to adopt the DOf model.

We seem to have moved in the opposite direction, and now everywhere I look everyone else is doing smarter business, and we are sliding back down that pole.

I liked the logic of the people we signed in the summer, but we ignored absolutely glaring deficiencies, then spent 30m on another fucking dimwit athlete winger in January. The very last thing we needed.

And Mourinho is hardly the guy to be cheer leading value investment with development potential upside.