Jose Mourinho

[Igula]

No. But his style of play is derived from Bielsa.

But I am not sure that Bielsa should get credit for guys he influenced and playing a different style winning when he himself can’t win.

If we are debating who is the best manager to learn under then that is applicable but Bielsa has had more than enough time managing to have a record for himself.

 

[skyfarer]

But I am not sure that Bielsa should get credit for guys he influenced and playing a different style winning when he himself can’t win.

If we are debating who is the best manager to learn under then that is applicable but Bielsa has had more than enough time managing to have a record for himself.

I agree I have some doubts about him as a manager vs as a coach/professor-type (there's a reason people call him nuts!), but he did do extremely well with Leeds last season in the Championship. And I think they are doing pretty good for their resources right now - for a newly promoted side, they're:
- 3rd in expected goals and shot creation actions
- 2nd for expected shots, 3rd for expected shots on target
- 1st in pressures
- 3rd in possession percentage
- midtable for number of passes and goals allowed

You've seen it before with promoted sides early on and I don't know where Leeds will end up this season, but I don't think people are overrating them (or at least, I haven't seen people put them in that Leicester/Everton/Wolves/maaybe Villa and West Ham pot for top 8 contention). Their fans' forums are over the moon with him, and they're the ones who observe their side most closely so I tend to trust their view on how things are going.

Didn't mean to make this a Bielsa thread though In truth I think there are many more factors than the manager in how a team performs, and different managers work better at different budget and pressure levels so you can't extract them from their context. My only thinking is I'd like to see more consistent, systematic play from us this season that doesn't rely so much on individual brilliance from Kane-Son to create chances.

But who knows, Man Utd looked absolutely wretched earlier and now they're clicking, so maybe it is still a matter of time/familiarity/form.

 

[Igula]

I agree I have some doubts about him as a manager vs as a coach/professor-type (there's a reason people call him nuts!), but he did do extremely well with Leeds last season in the Championship. And I think they are doing pretty good for their resources right now - for a newly promoted side, they're:
- 3rd in expected goals and shot creation actions
- 2nd for expected shots, 3rd for expected shots on target
- 1st in pressures
- 3rd in possession percentage
- midtable for number of passes and goals allowed

You've seen it before with promoted sides early on and I don't know where Leeds will end up this season, but I don't think people are overrating them (or at least, I haven't seen people put them in that Leicester/Everton/Wolves/maaybe Villa and West Ham pot for top 8 contention). Their fans' forums are over the moon with him, and they're the ones who observe their side most closely so I tend to trust their view on how things are going.

Didn't mean to make this a Bielsa thread though In truth I think there are many more factors than the manager in how a team performs, and different managers work better at different budget and pressure levels so you can't extract them from their context. My only thinking is I'd like to see more consistent, systematic play from us this season that doesn't rely so much on individual brilliance from Kane-Son to create chances.

But who knows, Man Utd looked absolutely wretched earlier and now they're clicking, so maybe it is still a matter of time/familiarity/form.

I don't think he is a garbage manager and Leeds fans should be happy with him.

I just don't think he is the genius that many do or that he is some great unappreciated manager. He has shown that he is unable to translate his "genius" idea into success on the field. He has managed for 30+ years and his biggest accomplishments are a few wins in the Argentinian League. That's fine but hardly elite level stuff.

And while many will point to him not having top teams to work with that is basically 100% due to him being too big of an ass to deserve a shot with a properly run club. He is the reason he hasn't had more success in his career or a shot at a bigger club.

But he is good fit for Leeds where his nonsense is tolerable.

 

[The special ones mai]

Lol the ignorance of this post is astounding.

He literally inspired a generation of managers and a way of playing that(thankfully) banished the awful muck football that the likes of Mourinho were playing in the mid to late 2000s back to the stone age, and managers such as Guardiola, Pochettino, Simeone and possibly Klopp I think have all called him one of if not the best coach in the world....

Journeyman manager? Give your head a wobble.

Awful muck football Mourinho was playing in the 2000s?! Bore off lol his chelsea team were smashing everyone and playing great football! You clearly got an agenda on Mourinho to be talking crap like that, his trophy cabinet tells a different story to bielsa and because you name drop a few managers who like him doesnt make him better than Mourinho.

 

[The special ones mai]

Haven't we learnt from having Harry Kane that winning things doesn't necessarily determine how good you are?

Your comparing a striker whos goal is to score goals to a manager whos goal is to win trophies and titles? Yes a manager at the highest level who doesnt win anything isnt successful.
In 20 years time will you be talking about how great it was poch getting a champions league runner up medal or spurs winning a trophy?

 

[Bazali]

He instigated the mass panic substitutions though which I thought was an over reaction, yes we weren't great but it's not like we played any better second half and at 1-0 down was there really any need for it? Chew their bollocks off at half time by all means, let them know their careers are on the line but then give em a chance to rectify it for 10 minutes.

Even tactically it didn't make much sense, at 1 - 0 up they were gonna shell and counter attack, I didn't think bringing Carlos off for Son was gonna help us open up their defense, I also thought he bottled taking Bale off who'd done fuck all.

At half time he helped create a narrative by making 4 subs that did fuck all to change the game.

It wasn’t mass panic substitutions

Things needed to change and Jose changed them at ht

If he’d left it until too late there would be some on here moaning

He gave us a chance which we didn’t take

Shit happens but Antwerp played well

 

[The special ones mai]

But this is just narrow minded.

In the same vein as people repeatedly saying "Yeah, but what has he won?" whenever an impressive Harry Kane performance or stat is brought up.

We see Harry Kane is a good player, not because of the trophies he's won. But because we SEE it. With our own eyes.

In the same way anyone who has actually sat and watched a Bielsa team can see how good of a coach he is. Considering you're basing your knowledge of Bielsa off of his wikipedia honours page, it's clear you probably haven't seen him outside of a potential Leeds game you've seen this season.

And even then, considering Leeds are up there with playing the best football in the league, it should probably tell you all you need to know about how good of a coach he is.

It hasnt even been 10 games yet, leeds could easily get relegated, best football in the league too ffs get a grip lol
Villa beat Liverpool 7-2 does that make them the best team in the league? No, not at all

 

[bus-conductor]

I don't think he is a garbage manager and Leeds fans should be happy with him.

I just don't think he is the genius that many do or that he is some great unappreciated manager. He has shown that he is unable to translate his "genius" idea into success on the field. He has managed for 30+ years and his biggest accomplishments are a few wins in the Argentinian League. That's fine but hardly elite level stuff.

And while many will point to him not having top teams to work with that is basically 100% due to him being too big of an ass to deserve a shot with a properly run club. He is the reason he hasn't had more success in his career or a shot at a bigger club.

But he is good fit for Leeds where his nonsense is tolerable.

Your argument is a bit disingenuous. Prior to him leaving South America, when managing sides with reasonable chances of "success" he won things. Two (and a half - weird system in Argentinian league) league championships with different teams, as well as a Copa Libertadores (South America's CL). He didn't win anything major with Argentina (Olympic gold) or Chile, but what he did with that Chile side was exceptional and they subsequently won a Copa I think, heavily influenced by the work he'd done. he changed their whole ethos and they started winning against teams they hadn't beaten away for literally decades, got them to a WC for the first time in three attempts and they were really unlucky to go out to Brazil, after largely being the better side.

Since then the clubs he's managed (ignoring Lazio and Lille who he barely had any time at) Bilbao, Marseille and Leeds have had no realistic expectation to win trophies, but he took Bilbao to two finals, got a pretty ordinary Marseille team to the top of the league for a chunk of the season (yes they faded to 4th but were up against much better teams that year) and won Leeds a Championship (getting them to the PL after years of failing to do so).

He has never taken the "cushty" CV job.

More (much more) importantly is how he believes the game should be played and coaches those football teams. His Chile side were great to watch, young, voracious, incredibly high tempo football. When I watched his Bilbao team obliterate Ferguson's Utd it absolutely blew my mind. That a humble team like that could not just skank a flukey win against a team like that, but comprehensively savage this uber club, expected to just roll them over. Those two games, especially that first leg, are ensconced in my brain forever. We'd seen Guardiola's Barca dismantle everyone, but they had all these wonderful footballers too, what Bielsa did with humble ingredients was astounding.

From some of the shit I've read about him, he probably has some kind of borderline personality disorder.
His methods are not flawless, they possibly don't suit uber clubs full of high net worth prima donnas, he can be manic and obsessive and demand things of players that are sometimes impossible to maintain, his teams often struggle to maintain his relentless methods for entire seasons, and his high risk football can be punished, but the fans of nearly all of those teams enjoy the ride and often forgive the failings because they can see a coach who actually coaches something tangible, it's often ferocious, aggressive and about taking the game to the opposition and ramming it up their arses, not bending over or trying to sneak wins, and attempts to extract the absolute maximum out of the players.

I think he's influenced (directly and/or indirectly) a lot of the type of energetic, aggressive football we are seeing in Germany the last few years (including the current Bayern coach) people like Klopp who has married some of the Bielsa type approach to a smarter, tactically more astute, periodised approach, Gasperini's Atalanta, not to mention the obvious Guardiola, Pochettino etc. Some of those may not even be directly influenced, but I'm sure there's maybe an indirect influence there, where his coaching ideas have permeated their way around football.

I think your iconoclastic tendencies are massively misguided here.

 

[Totti]

Your comparing a striker whos goal is to score goals to a manager whos goal is to win trophies and titles? Yes a manager at the highest level who doesnt win anything isnt successful.
In 20 years time will you be talking about how great it was poch getting a champions league runner up medal or spurs winning a trophy?

No, I'm comparing peoples opinions on what equates success.

Are you telling me Bielsa should have won more with Bilbao and Marseille?

20 years ago, Bielsa was winning international coach of the year. And 20 years later, we're still talking about him.

FFS, some idiots on here are still talking about George Graham winning us a trophy 20 years ago, so yes, I am sure people will always remember the great stuff we played under Pochettino and that Ajax semi final.

 

[Totti]

It hasnt even been 10 games yet, leeds could easily get relegated, best football in the league too ffs get a grip lol
Villa beat Liverpool 7-2 does that make them the best team in the league? No, not at all

They could - but that doesn't mean they don't play good football. I'm willing to bet, they do stay up and finish higher than the two teams that came up with them.

And no, Villa beating Liverpool doesn't make them the best team in the league. Not really sure what that's got to do with anything.

 

[bus-conductor]

He instigated the mass panic substitutions though which I thought was an over reaction, yes we weren't great but it's not like we played any better second half and at 1-0 down was there really any need for it? Chew their bollocks off at half time by all means, let them know their careers are on the line but then give em a chance to rectify it for 10 minutes.

Even tactically it didn't make much sense, at 1 - 0 up they were gonna shell and counter attack, I didn't think bringing Carlos off for Son was gonna help us open up their defense, I also thought he bottled taking Bale off who'd done fuck all.

At half time he helped create a narrative by making 4 subs that did fuck all to change the game.

Completely agree. It was Mourinho 101. If I make this big gesture I shift the emphasis from the fact that my insipid team look like they haven't been coached to move intelligently and make it look like it was all down to personnel decisions - he did exactly the same at Utd, moaning post match about "this is what happens when I play my non favourite players who the crowd wanted" etc.

The subs were stupid and counter intuitive for the most part, not only did some of them not really make much sense - or difference - in the context of the game on the night, but they will only serve to help diminish the confidence of some of those players who needed the game time, like Vinicius.

 

[windrepel]

Haven't we learnt from having Harry Kane that winning things doesn't necessarily determine how good you are?

Players is players , manager is manager. I know there are good player who hasn't yet to win anything because either their teammate isn't good enough or their manager isn't or just combination of both. But a manager , if he was so good then why no big club hire him ? It's not like manager has a price tag like player has. With big club the chance of winning trophy would be higher for a manager , or at least try to win your domestic trophy in your homeland first as stepping stone . If Jose Mourinho never won with Porto would he become a manager we know today ? Would abramovich interested in getting him to his multimillion dollar project ? There has to be a start somewhere and bielsa , despite being 65 years old , never start winning. Mourinho once said "there are lots poets in football , but poets , they don't win many titles" bielsa is exactly what he described as poets. Good at talking , good at theory, shit at winning.

 

[Totti]

Players is players , manager is manager. I know there are good player who hasn't yet to win anything because either their teammate isn't good enough or their manager isn't or just combination of both. But a manager , if he was so good then why no big club hire him ? It's not like manager has a price tag like player has. With big club the chance of winning trophy would be higher for a manager , or at least try to win your domestic trophy in your homeland . If Jose Mourinho never won with Porto would he become a manager we know today ? Would abramovich interested in getting him to his multimillion dollar project ? There has to be a start somewhere and bielsa , despite being 65 years old , never start winning. Mourinho once said "there are lots poets in football , but poets , they don't win many titles" bielsa is exactly what he described as poets. Good at talking , good at theory, shit at winning.

Because he's clearly a bit fucking mental.

What are you talking about? He did win in his domestic homeland. The league twice with two different clubs. He's spent the majority of his career managing internationally. Winning personal honours for his coaching along the way.

Why are we comparing Mourinho and Bielsa?

 

[TomHotspur]

Awful muck football Mourinho was playing in the 2000s?! Bore off lol his chelsea team were smashing everyone and playing great football! You clearly got an agenda on Mourinho to be talking crap like that, his trophy cabinet tells a different story to bielsa and because you name drop a few managers who like him doesnt make him better than Mourinho.

I never said it wasn’t successful. He assembled an outstanding team at Chelsea but don’t try and rewrite history by claiming they played great football. They played the reactive, pragmatic football that has been the hallmark of Mourinho teams his entire career. And it worked.... that is, until Guardiola came on the scene.
Guardiola’s emergence and his dominance at Barcelona was the beginning of the end for Mourinho as a truly elite level manager. Mourinho has never been the same since. Firstly he was probably annoyed Guardiola got the Barca gig ahead of him (Mourinho was strongly considered for it), but moreso he couldn’t stand the fact that Guardiola was getting the better of him by playing the type of football that Mournho fundamentally disagrees with. Guardiola, initially inspired by Bielsa, inspired many successful current day coaches that it was possible to play positive, pro active football and still be successful and at the same time slowly pushed coaches of the vintage of Mourinho, Benitez, Van Gaal etc. to the second tier.

 

[windrepel]

Completely agree. It was Mourinho 101. If I make this big gesture I shift the emphasis from the fact that my insipid team look like they haven't been coached to move intelligently and make it look like it was all down to personnel decisions - he did exactly the same at Utd, moaning post match about "this is what happens when I play my non favourite players who the crowd wanted" etc.

To be honest, he was proven to be right, some people talk like United would have walked the league winning all trophies available with fans favorite player playing regularly and without toxic manager spreading toxicity all around the place.
but the reality is , the current united haven't even surpass mourinho achievement there let alone winning a remarkable trophy, it's surprising how someone with over 25 major trophies know about football better than most people right ? Back then Paul Scholes said United squad were good enough to win the league when mourinho have them finished 2nd and only failed to win because the dinosaur manager.
Now he said they need another 3-5 world class player because his mate is the manager..what a lot of bollocks

 

[Steve73]

It wasn’t mass panic substitutions

Things needed to change and Jose changed them at ht

If he’d left it until too late there would be some on here moaning

He gave us a chance which we didn’t take

Shit happens but Antwerp played well

1-0 down at half time in a 6 game series with a win under our belts and an irregular team playing together for the first time. I call 4 subs at half time an over reaction, we did no better second half and he took off people like Carlos who can hold the ball up and bring others in, something Son didn't manage.

He threw the players under the bus as per. We might win stuff with Jose, I hope we do, but we can't be blind to his, him first, everyone else second bollocks. It's as clear as the nose on your face,

 

[ryuzakiluke100]

1-0 down at half time in a 6 game series with a win under our belts and an irregular team playing together for the first time. I call 4 subs at half time an over reaction, we did no better second half and he took off people like Carlos who can hold the ball up and bring others in, something Son didn't manage.

He threw the players under the bus as per. We might win stuff with Jose, I hope we do, but we can't be blind to his, him first, everyone else second bollocks. It's as clear as the nose on your face,

So your whole point is big bad Mourinho made mistake, and shifted the blame?

Football is not just scoreline. Couldn't score but didn't concede is better if you're all about nit picking.

if you're about to discuss performance then the first half team struggled to even progress up the pitch, and being forced into hoofing. No support to provide passing options, leading to players dwelling on ball, which is the catalyst to the conceding goal. The change was to give the players in deeper positions some passing options, which CV needed to make way as Kane was destined to be bring on when Bale reached his 60 minutes for this game. Keep CV longer then, it's delaying other subs through domino effect.

 

[The special ones mai]

No, I'm comparing peoples opinions on what equates success.

Are you telling me Bielsa should have won more with Bilbao and Marseille?

20 years ago, Bielsa was winning international coach of the year. And 20 years later, we're still talking about him.

FFS, some idiots on here are still talking about George Graham winning us a trophy 20 years ago, so yes, I am sure people will always remember the great stuff we played under Pochettino and that Ajax semi final.

Why shouldnt he of not won more with those teams? If he did so well? If he was this amazing manager your declaring why didnt he get a bigger job instead of those teams? What kind of excuse is he was at smaller teams so we shouldnt expect him to win anything lol your talking rubbish!

You can remember the ajax semi final if you want but a one off game doesnt make him a great manager either, he eventually lost the final! Then got sacked 5 months later...

 

[Brian Fantana]

I have watched the game as well and this is where a difference in opinion comes in. Chelsea have fought for every first and second ball. We got beat to those. That is why we struggled to break them down. We also played deeper than chelsea allowing more room in between the lines for the second ball to be won.

This has been a fault of ours for years. If you look at our good performances this year it has been when our players have been 100% up for it and won these challenges. They just seem to be such a hard group to motivate week in week out.

 

[HeroesAndVillains]

xG Burnley 0.6 - Spurs 0.6
xG Burnley 0.4 - Chelsea 0.9

Behave...