Moussa Sissoko

[Bazali]

You are kind of making my point here. Pardew didn't win MOTY after Sissoko arrived did he? He ended up getting the sack and they were subsequently relegated with Maclaren, but the season before they only survived on the last day I think.

Sissoko was never at the heart of Pochettino's midfield that title challenged, in fact, there is a linear relationship to our demise in league performances and results to an increase in the use of Sissoko at the "heart of our midfield". And guess what...things get shitter and shitter until he ends up getting the sack from a virtually un-sackable job.

As far as being the "heart of our midfield" that took us to a CL final (whilst our league form and performances tanked more and more) he played less minutes than 6 other players and only a few minutes more than another 5 in a campaign that saw us scrape out of the group on GD thanks to PSV winning a game they had nothing riding on, that then saw us lose 3 of our last 5 games in the competition, and pointed our way into losing the fucking final, another game he was atrocious in. He was no more at the heart of our midfield than Winks was.

As for Deschamps, no I don't. He hadn't won a domestic trophy since 2010. He has had one of the best squads there's been in international football in the last 30 years or so, maybe more. He's managed to piss away a home Euro playing shite football, grind his way to a WC (completely without Sissoko) and as I've posted, French fans are pretty unimpressed with his personnel choices, tactics (and particularly Sissoko - see above).

Dogshit is your term, not mine, I'd prefer to just call him an utterly inadequate footballer, technically, tactically, but in relative terms, relativity being top echelons of football, using your terms, he is dogshit, and generally speaking, in as much as you can never say everything is one player's fault any more than you can say it's one player's contribution, it's not gone great for any manager who's hung their hat on him.

So Jose’s fucked then in your opinion?

And Poch got sacked for picking him as did Pardew?

Dearie me
Lmfao

I’m sure COVID must be down to him too in your world

 

[Doom Funk]

Everyone seems to ignore this point every time bus-conductor mentions it

There is a direct correlation between us going from title challengers to midtable fodder without an away win in almost a year when Poch left and Sissokos growing number of appearances in the "heart of our midfield" over that time period

It would be harsh and incorrect to put all of that on him but he is a big part of it , he simply isnt good enough

 

[bus-conductor]

So Jose’s fucked then in your opinion?

And Poch got sacked for picking him as did Pardew?

Dearie me
Lmfao

I’m sure COVID must be down to him too in your world

In the same way that he was responsible for Pardew's MOTY award, Poch's title challenge, or our CL run you mean?

My point is, a whole bunch of teams and managers haven't exactly been better off for employing Sissoko have they. I have just tried to rebut that bogus argument, that there is evidence3 of teams being "better" or "great" with Sissoko. The evidence generally leans the other way.

Jose being fucked will depend on a few things, the biggest one being Kane, who's so far directly involved in 78% of all our goals, but Sissoko definitely needs to be improved on no matter what happens.

I don't know why you keep cranking this accordion, but are happy to point out the stupidity of managers continually picking people like Trippier, Aurier, Winks etc - seems when managers pick Sissoko they are "experts whose selections shouldn't be questioned" when they pick the players you don't like that logic gets a bit blurred?

 

[Datzlo]

You are kind of making my point here. Pardew didn't win MOTY after Sissoko arrived did he? He ended up getting the sack and they were subsequently relegated with Maclaren, but the season before they only survived on the last day I think.

Actually, no, Pardew wasn't sacked, but put in a request to leave and take the Palace job. Personally I think their fall from grace has much more to do with Mike Ashley than Pardew, but if you want to insist that picking Sissoko was the downfall of the club, then I guess not much will penetrate your bias.

Sissoko was never at the heart of Pochettino's midfield that title challenged,

That doesn't matter. You were calling into question thew judgement of the coach who created that side. Sissoko was brought into help us get to the next level, as I recall.

in fact, there is a linear relationship to our demise in league performances and results to an increase in the use of Sissoko at the "heart of our midfield".

I'm open to some evidence of this, if you have any, but I'm going to go back to reminding you that he was at the heart of our midfield as we reached a Champions League final.

As far as being the "heart of our midfield" that took us to a CL final (whilst our league form and performances tanked more and more) he played less minutes than 6 other players

Yes, and only one of those was a midfielder. Guess who it was? Eriksen. I can't wait to see what you make of that.

and only a few minutes more than another 5 in a campaign that saw us scrape out of the group

So let me get this straight: you think that escaping a group with BARCELONA and Inter MIlan is now somehow a shitty achievement, and you're going to denigrate our CL run just so you can bitch about Sissoko. Like I said, your bias seems impenetrable.

pointed our way into losing the fucking final

Um, I recall that being the worst penalty decision ever seen in European competition, but hey, go ahead and blame him for it if you must. I'm sure he was personally responsible for their second somehow, too. Clearly, he was appalling that day, because we lost. No-one else was, of course, and it had nothing to do with Liverpool being any good, but clearly is just proof that he is a total waste of space.

As for Deschamps, no I don't. He has had one of the best squads there's been in international football in the last 30 years or so,

And they funnily didn't mature into a winning-squad until their 3rd tournament, and needed Mbappe to emerge as the best teenager in the world to do so. But you're right: Deschamps is just a chancer who knows nothing, and could have won with his eyes closed if not for that pesky Sissoko destroying his dreams...

As for "the French fans", sorry, I'm not overly interested in what their version of AFTV viewers has to say.

Dogshit is your term, not mine, I'd prefer to just call him an utterly inadequate footballer, technically, tactically,

Even though all the evidence suggests that he's technically sound, tactically astute and somehow has managed to win the respect of our locker room despite being such a donkey. Can I put that word in your mouth, at least?

 

[Datzlo]

In the same way that he was responsible for Pardew's MOTY award, Poch's title challenge, or our CL run you mean?

No, you've got that backwards. YOU were the one who called into question the managers who select him. I just reminded you that these same managers have some decent pedigree.

But yes, for the last one, Sissoko was a huge part of our side that made a CL final. Yes, I understand that our league form suffered, but them's the breaks when you are still a few years ahead of schedule with the 'project' and don't yet have the squad to juggle two competitions of such intensity yet.

What would you have had us do? Throw in the towel in Europe to focus on league form? Glory glory, mate.

 

[Datzlo]

Everyone seems to ignore this point every time bus-conductor mentions it

There is a direct correlation between us going from title challengers to midtable fodder without an away win in almost a year when Poch left and Sissokos growing number of appearances in the "heart of our midfield" over that time period

It would be harsh and incorrect to put all of that on him but he is a big part of it , he simply isnt good enough

Sorry for the 3rd post in a row, but I have a question for you: which games this season have NOT featured Sissoko as a starter, or in fact at all?

Everton (on at half time)
Newcastle (didn't play)
Rapid Vienna (didn't play)

What happened in those games? Why is our form better when he starts?

 

[Allejo10]

He was in a similar position than Davies against Antwerp but everybody slated Davies for that at the time. Very poor ball control for a midfielder.

 

[Allejo10]

Sorry for the 3rd post in a row, but I have a question for you: which games this season have NOT featured Sissoko as a starter, or in fact at all?

Everton (on at half time)
Newcastle (didn't play)
Rapid Vienna (didn't play)

What happened in those games? Why is our form better when he starts?

To be fair we won agains Vienna and would have won agains Newcastle also if it wasn't for a robbed penalty at the end (also that was one of our best games). But agains Everton I should agree he changed the game for the better, despite we couldn't won at the time the change of Dele for him made us a far more quicker team in the transition, and that's the way we should play.
Said that, what annoys me in him is the lack of the basics, if he just could have just and ok pass and a ok vision and an ok shot, he would be twice the player he is.

 

[bus-conductor]

No, you've got that backwards. YOU were the one who called into question the managers who select him. I just reminded you that these same managers have some decent pedigree.

But yes, for the last one, Sissoko was a huge part of our side that made a CL final. Yes, I understand that our league form suffered, but them's the breaks when you are still a few years ahead of schedule with the 'project' and don't yet have the squad to juggle two competitions of such intensity yet.

What would you have had us do? Throw in the towel in Europe to focus on league form? Glory glory, mate.

In stand corrected re Pardew technically, but he jumped because he was getting slaughtered by Newcastle fans IIRC for their atrocious form and performances.

We didn't prioritise the CL over the league, and our form started to dip the season before we even had the CL run. What I would have us do is not keep selecting an technically incompetent player who was counter intuitive to a style of play which was all about possession, moving the ball through midfield and pressing.

There are lots of reasons we started declining from 2017, but Sissoko is definitely one of those reasons, not redeeming feature of that decline.

And the same goes for Newcastle, Sissoko was definitely not the only reason, Pardew being a pretty shit manager is a major one, but again, picking players like Sissoko contributed to that failure, and opinion of Sissoko from Newcastle fans reflected that.

That doesn't matter. You were calling into question thew judgement of the coach who created that side. Sissoko was brought into help us get to the next level, as I recall.

How did that work out?

I'm open to some evidence of this, if you have any, but I'm going to go back to reminding you that he was at the heart of our midfield as we reached a Champions League final.

Performances and results from 2017 onwards, compared to those prior do you?

So let me get this straight: you think that escaping a group with BARCELONA and Inter MIlan is now somehow a shitty achievement, and you're going to denigrate our CL run just so you can bitch about Sissoko. Like I said, your bias seems impenetrable.

I'm no more denigrating it than you were over stating it as a metric for Sissoko's individual achievement or contribution to it. You say "Inter Milan" like they were some kind of European super club in 2018? And forgot to mention PSV too.

Um, I recall that being the worst penalty decision ever seen in European competition, but hey, go ahead and blame him for it if you must. I'm sure he was personally responsible for their second somehow, too. Clearly, he was appalling that day, because we lost. No-one else was, of course, and it had nothing to do with Liverpool being any good, but clearly is just proof that he is a total waste of space.

I recall it being typical and inevitable, I'd even called it in other match threads, that him standing there pointing at inane shit in the area would cost us. I never said he was the only player who was shit that day. I also don't think Liverpool were good that day either. But he was fucking atrocious, the stupid penalty aside, constantly hiding from the ball and pointing it away.

Even though all the evidence suggests that he's technically sound, tactically astute

I can't believe I got this far only to discover this was all a wind up.

 

[The Outsider]

Everyone seems to ignore this point every time bus-conductor mentions it

There is a direct correlation between us going from title challengers to midtable fodder without an away win in almost a year when Poch left and Sissokos growing number of appearances in the "heart of our midfield" over that time period

It would be harsh and incorrect to put all of that on him but he is a big part of it , he simply isnt good enough

Where do you get that from?

Sissoko appearances -

16/17 - 34
17/18 - 47
18/19 - 44
19/20 - 35

Where is this direct correlation? Sissoko was one of the most used payers by Poch, his lowest number of appearances in reality coincides with our worst league finish in those four years.

If Blakey had a point fair enough - but he clearly doesn't - indeed the facts show the exact opposite, in arguably Poch's two most successful seasons Sissoko made his most appearances ... who knew he was such a key player? well Mourinho for one ...

Sissoko is 31 and he will be phased out ... but don't knock the GOAT

 

[bus-conductor]

Where do you get that from?

Sissoko appearances -

16/17 - 34
17/18 - 47
18/19 - 44
19/20 - 35

Where is this direct correlation? Sissoko was one of the most used payers by Poch, his lowest number of appearances in reality coincides with our worst league finish in those four years.

If Blakey had a point fair enough - but he clearly doesn't - indeed the facts show the exact opposite, in arguably Poch's two most successful seasons Sissoko made his most appearances ... who knew?

You do understand the that an appearance can mean 1 minute or 90 and as a measurement metric for measuring a players time on the pitch is virtually meaningless ?

Sissoko PL minutes played:

16-17 - 902 - 2nd - 86 points

17-18 - 1394 - 3rd - 77 points

18-19 - 2337 - 4th - 71 points

19-20 - 2455 - 6th - 59 points


How about that for a nice linear correlation?

 

[Igula]

You may be right. Perhaps this is why Winks and Skipp got fewer minutes. I notice Sissoko didn't.


I think you mean Mou would like to see that particular pairing be a viable option, not that he can't wait to upgrade, but maybe I just missed his comments?

Mourinho shocked to learn that Spurs player was a big influence in the dressing room - The Spurs Web - Tottenham Hotspur Football News

Tottenham Hotspur fans have to wait until Monday before they can watch the first three episodes of Amazon’s ‘All or Nothing: Tottenham Hotspur’. However, some...

www.spurs-web.com

Moussa Sissoko has proved again why he is so crucial to Mourinho and Tottenham

Moussa Sissoko has forced his way back into Jose Mourinho's best Tottenham XI after missing out in the league in the first few weeks of the campaign

www.football.london

I'm not so sure you're right about that.

Those articles don't prove that he does anything to help us at all.

Again nobody seems to say what he does to help us. Its always a point to the manager or a point to the overall record, nothing about Sissoko.

He isn't good with the ball? Is that debatable do you disagree? Is their a MF in the line-up of any top quality team that is as bad with the ball as Sissoko? Liverpool and City not even close, Bayern no way, Leicester- nope Ndidi lightyears better, Chelsea- Nope, Barca and RM- nope, PSG- Nope even teams that aren't that close don't have guys that bad with the ball Lyon last year on their run, RB Leipzig.

Why then do we have a guy so much worse than any one else.

Is it because he is good off the ball? Nope, because he isn't. He doesn't help cover for other players, he is not good at man marking, he is weak on set pieces, he gives away cheap fouls, he is rarely in the right area to cut out the opposition attack.

He offers nothing.

 

[The Outsider]

You do understand the that an appearance can mean 1 minute or 90 and as a measurement metric for measuring a players time on the pitch is virtually meaningless ?

Sissoko PL minutes played:

16-17 - 902 - 2nd - 86 points

17-18 - 1394 - 3rd - 77 points

18-19 - 2337 - 4th - 71 points

19-20 - 2455 - 6th - 59 points


How about that for a nice linear correlation?

Leicester points per minutes played was the lowest for the top team (or possibly second lowest) since the EPL began in 2015/16, yet they won the title - were all Leicester players rubbish that season?

Without context what are you saying? if Sissoko came on as a sub when we were three nil down and we lost 3-1 was that 3 point for him, or zero? Did we get more points when he played or when he didn't? Just what point are you trying to make?

If you are going to use broad no context comparison then realistically the only ones that matters are league position and cup results, at the end of the season the table doesn't lie ...

16/17 - 34 appearances EPL 2nd, FA SF, EL R32
17/18 - 47 appearances EPL 3rd, FA SF, CL R16
18/19 - 44 appearances EPL 4th, FA R4, CL Final
19/20 - 35 appearances EPL 6th, FA R5, CL R16

It's almost impossible to argue that Sissoko didn't play his part ... or at least it should be.

 

[Steve73]

He's a trier but ultimately he's not good enough technically, that's pretty clear if you watch him every week.
The difference between him and PEH and Tanguy is pretty stark when you see how they make themselves available to receive the ball and Sis doesn't. Even if he was a brilliant stopper like Kante (he isn't) his unwillingness or inability to want the ball in tight areas renders him sub par.

If we truly want the best team and the best chance of winning stuff then he needs to be upgraded on. Happy for Lo Celsius to play instead when he's fit but it doesn't look like Jose's going for that yet. A prime Victor or Dembele would be a massive upgrade on Sis as it was the year we played our best footy and came 2nd to Chelsea.

As a Spurs fan I hope it happens soon, I don't get sentimental about players and only ever really miss the really good ones we struggle to replace. That'll never be said about Sissoko.

 

[ArcspacE]

Everyone seems to ignore this point every time bus-conductor mentions it

There is a direct correlation between us going from title challengers to midtable fodder without an away win in almost a year when Poch left and Sissokos growing number of appearances in the "heart of our midfield" over that time period

It would be harsh and incorrect to put all of that on him but he is a big part of it , he simply isnt good enough

This is very true - him and Winks was our worst midfield duo since Jol’s days - shocking really but now we’ve fixed it

 

[Datzlo]

We didn't prioritise the CL over the league,

That's not what I said. I said that we struggled to retain form in both because our squad wasn't deep enough to handle it adequately.

and our form started to dip the season before we even had the CL run.

Well, I mean that did coincide with City and Liverpool becoming the best teams of the modern era.

What I would have us do is not keep selecting an technically incompetent player

Me too. We should, however, keep Sissoko since he is a technically proficient player who passes efficiently, is virtually never dribbled past, tackles with the highest success rate in our squad, and despite the chuckles at the France game is actually one of the payers who loses the ball the least for us.

We can go around in rhetorical circles for as long as you like, but if you ever want the conversation to go anywhere you are going to have to eventually deal with all the data which contradicts your claims.

who was counter intuitive to a style of play which was all about possession, moving the ball through midfield and pressing.

Well, maybe that was part of the problem? You did say our form declined...

There are lots of reasons we started declining from 2017, but Sissoko is definitely one of those reasons

Said with precisely nothing more to back you up than your own self-confidence. Sorry, I don't share the same confidence in your analytical skills.

How did that work out?

Well, we got a really good CM for 30m from them, so I'm happy with it.

I'm no more denigrating it than you were over stating it as a metric for Sissoko's individual achievement or contribution to it. You say "Inter Milan" like they were some kind of European super club in 2018?

No, I believe I highlighted BARCELONA for that role, but certainly Inter were not abysmal either. I didn't overstate anything. I pointed out that our successful run in the Champions League, where we not only escaped that group, but also battered BVB, out-played City and came back valiantly against Ajax contained a midfield that consisted of Sissoko and Eriksen more than anyone else.

This is another point of data against your claims.

I recall it being typical and inevitable,

What, despite it literally NEVER HAVING HAPPENED TO HIM BEFORE? Like I said, your bias is impenetrable.

I can't believe I got this far only to discover this was all a wind up.

 

[Datzlo]

Those articles don't prove that he does anything to help us at all.

On the contrary, they show that everyone else at the club thinks you're wrong. I trust the players and coach before I trust vague, nebulous criticism on an internet forum.

He isn't good with the ball?

In what way? I've already shown you that he's one of the most efficient passers we have, rarely loses the ball, and that his role is not to be 'on the ball' in the first place. I'm still waiting for any of the detractors here to address that, because instead all I get is this eternal rhetoric. Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Is it because he is good off the ball?

Yes, because he is. That's why he has such a high number of interceptions, blocks and tackles, and has one of the lowest 'dribbled past' rates of our entire team.

He is literally the opposite of what you guys say.

He offers nothing.

Then go tell all the managers, pundits, players and fans who rate him, because they all say you chaps are wrong, and they all get paid to know more about this than you do.

 

[Igula]

On the contrary, they show that everyone else at the club thinks you're wrong. I trust the players and coach before I trust vague, nebulous criticism on an internet forum.



In what way? I've already shown you that he's one of the most efficient passers we have, rarely loses the ball, and that his role is not to be 'on the ball' in the first place. I'm still waiting for any of the detractors here to address that, because instead all I get is this eternal rhetoric. Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.



Yes, because he is. That's why he has such a high number of interceptions, blocks and tackles, and has one of the lowest 'dribbled past' rates of our entire team.

He is literally the opposite of what you guys say.



Then go tell all the managers, pundits, players and fans who rate him, because they all say you chaps are wrong, and they all get paid to know more about this than you do.

You haven’t shown anything that disproves what we all see on the field with his passing, he is his awful.

And the pundits and majority of the fans see the obvious, that he is not close to good enough. He loses the ball all the time, his play today fir France is 100% representative of what often happens when he has the ball at his feet.

He is a terrible player, there is no arguing that. Nobody has yet provided a defense of him based in his ability, nobody has provided an example of a player in the MF for a top team who is as god awful playing the ball as him. It is the constant nonsense about managers, who were more than happy to drop him, liking him and that’s why he is supposedly good.

 

[Datzlo]

You haven’t shown anything that disproves what we all see on the field with his passing, he is his awful.

Yawn. Of course I did. He has literally the best pass completion rate in the team behind Aurier.

And the pundits and majority of the fans see the obvious, that he is not close to good enough.

Really? Then how come I can keep finding you articles which show that everyone else seems to get what he does, even if you don't? You don't address the articles, just like you don't address the stats. You just pretend that they don't exist or don't matter, because they contradict you.

He loses the ball all the time,

Give me examples from your infallible memory, or else stop trying to argue with the statistics which demonstrate otherwise.

He is a terrible player, there is no arguing that.

Indeed, there is no respectable or evidence-based way to make such an argument.

Nobody has yet provided a defense of him based in his ability,

Yes I have, multiple times. You just keep ignoring it.

nobody has provided an example of a player in the MF for a top team who is as god awful playing the ball as him.

Why should anyone have to satisfy such an illegitimate challenge? You're the one who has to demonstrate that he's shit in the first place, and you haven't done anything of the sort. You just keep saying it, as though it will become true by sheer dint of repetition.

It is the constant nonsense about managers, who were more than happy to drop him, liking him and that’s why he is supposedly good

That's only one part of it. The data and stats are another part of it, but the reason people bring up the managers is because every manager who has him seems to rate him, and makes him a staple of their side. This is not a meaningless point. It in fact shows that the footballing world doesn't share your opinion.

I'm still waiting for a reason why you think I should either. Thus far all I ever see is people insisting he is crap just because they say so.

 

[Brian Fantana]

But according to some he’s good because Deschamps picks him for France?

Annoyingly displays like that playing for them isn’t going to help someone taking him off our hands.