England vs Italy

[Beech]

We've been sloppy but I still think some reactions are a bit over the top. We were poor against Hungary and looked lethargic all game. But they aren't an easy side to play against, and deserved to beat Germany yesterday. Against Germany we were sloppy with and without the ball at times but still could have won the game. I'd be far more concerned if we weren't creating anything than I am when we have much less possession than the opposition. Yesterday was far from great but it was two patched up sides playing inside a stadium without any atmosphere, and again, we had chances to score more than one goal.

Having Chilwell back in the 11 isn't the answer to our lack of goals at times but we'll definitely look a much more balanced team with him in the side instead of a 4th choice right-back playing at left-back.

 

[Beech]

The disappointment was enormous, but Mancini also lives a bit of income for the European championship. He was also unlucky with the Chiesa injury that was possibly the star

Chiesa is always quite rubbish when I see him at club level but always looks a completely different player in an Italy shirt.

 

[Airfixx]

Chiesa is always quite rubbish when I see him at club level but always looks a completely different player in an Italy shirt.

He's their Harry McGuire.

 

[Deleted member 15314]

Yeh, he's got 3 years now to do some serious building.

Just suprised he didn't find himself under massive pressure.

tbf, winning the Euros earns you a lot of good will. Also, who would even replace him?

 

[Airfixx]

tbf, winning the Euros earns you a lot of good will.

I'd certainly swap places with them for a win in that final.

Also, who would even replace him?

No idea.....

 

[Gmspurs]

We didn't get stuffed against Croatia at all. We lost to them after extra-time in a game that we should have put to bed by half-time as we were comfortably the better team. That excellent Croatia team in 2018 just had much more experience than we did in those situations and that got them the victory in the end.

There's plenty to moan about with England at the moment but you come across as one of them that won't give any credit whatsoever at any time. If we did beat Belgium and Spain you would probably be telling us all that it's only because they're not what they once were, or didn't show up.

I do agree that Southgate is getting the bare minimum out of the squad though.

What utter rubbish - you make too many assumptions about people you don't know.

If have had beaten Spain, Uruguay and Belgium to get to the final then how could anyone have doubted anything about Southgate. (But you keep up with your cheap shots about people still being unhappy)

Except we didn't, we lost to Belgium in a fairly one sided contest that got us into the much easier side of the draw.

And then we lost to Belgium again for 3rd spot.

Who did we beat in that run that we weren't wildly favourites or fully expected to beat?

 

[Beech]

What utter rubbish - you make too many assumptions about people you don't know.

If have had beaten Spain, Uruguay and Belgium to get to the final then how could anyone have doubted anything about Southgate. (But you keep up with your cheap shots about people still being unhappy)

Except we didn't, we lost to Belgium in a fairly one sided contest that got us into the much easier side of the draw.

And then we lost to Belgium again for 3rd spot.

Who did we beat in that run that we weren't wildly favourites or fully expected to beat?

Well you're opening paragraph was how we apparently got stuffed, in your own words, by Croatia in the World Cup. Which is simply made up nonsense. That's not taking cheap shots at all. There's plenty to moan about in regards to England and Southgate without making things up. We lost 2-1 after extra-time in a game where we dominated the first half and should have been two or three up and the game already won.

Against Belgium, the first loss was between two sides fielding much weaker teams and the second a 3rd place game which no side ever wants to play in. But they were number 1 in the world anyway so it's hardly a disgrace to lose to them by a couple of goals, is it?

In the Euros we beat Germany, which is never easy, and then beat a Denmark side that many were suddenly tipping to win the competition as they were riding the crest of a wave at the time after what happened with Eriksen. We were a little fortunate to be playing Germany at Wembley but home support can sometimes be as much of a hinderance as it is a positive because of the pressure and expectation it brings.

 

[Beech]

Something isn't right there right now. Picking favourites instead of in form players is always going to cause issues. You cannot possibly tell me maguire should be in that squad but not dier. Right back at left back. Players like mount who continue to flatter to deceive while you have foden just sitting on the bench. Disappointing tournament incoming followed by the departure of Southgate I reckon.

I don't even mind his persistence with Maguire. We have one of the best defensive records around under Southgate and Maguire has been in his team throughout. In a back three he's perfectly adequate, and I'd prefer him over the likes of Mings, Coady and Tarkowski.

But his continued selection of Mount is baffling. Mount is a good player and is excellent off the ball but he has yet to perform for England anything like how he regularly does for Chelsea, and Southgate seems to change his position from the front three to part of the midfield three and back again just to shoehorn him into the starting 11. 4 goals in 30 International games is awful when you consider what he does for Chelsea and the goal threat he often poses.

 

[Gmspurs]

There's plenty to moan about with England at the moment but you come across as one of them that won't give any credit whatsoever at any time. If we did beat Belgium and Spain you would probably be telling us all that it's only because they're not what they once were, or didn't show up.

This is utter tosh - and the cheap shots I was referring to when you know nothing.

You come across as someone who likes to rewrite our luck as some kind of Southgate master class in management.

"Many were topping Denmark to win" - what a load of cobblers.

Many wanted Denmark to win due to the Eriksen event - there's a big difference. We went into that game as massive favourites.

All over the place.

 

[Airfixx]

I don't even mind his persistence with Maguire. We have one of the best defensive records around under Southgate and Maguire has been in his team throughout. In a back three he's perfectly adequate, and I'd prefer him over the likes of Mings, Coady and Tarkowski.

But his continued selection of Mount is baffling. Mount is a good player and is excellent off the ball but he has yet to perform for England anything like how he regularly does for Chelsea, and Southgate seems to change his position from the front three to part of the midfield three and back again just to shoehorn him into the starting 11.

This.

4 goals in 30 International games is awful when you consider what he does for Chelsea and the goal threat he often poses.

I'd happily take 0 goals from him if the rest of his play was up to snuff..... But it isn't.

 

[LeParisien]

But Mount doesn’t suddenly lose his ability because he pulls on an England shirt ?

I think the problem is that Southgate is trying to wedge his best players together rather than coming up with the best system for the players at his disposal and then playing players who will have an impact in a role where they can shine.

 

[Beech]

This is utter tosh - and the cheap shots I was referring to when you know nothing.

You come across as someone who likes to rewrite our luck as some kind of Southgate master class in management.

"Many were topping Denmark to win" - what a load of cobblers.

Many wanted Denmark to win due to the Eriksen event - there's a big difference. We went into that game as massive favourites.

All over the place.

I just call out BS when I see it. And your comment about England apparently getting stuffed by Croatia was exactly that, and is what caught my attention of your post in the first place.

I recall plenty of people saying that Denmark had a great chance of winning the game because the underdog role favoured them. Give your head a wobble.

 

[Gmspurs]

I just call out BS when I see it. And your comment about England apparently getting stuffed by Croatia was exactly that, and is what caught my attention of your post in the first place.

I recall plenty of people saying that Denmark had a great chance of winning the game because the underdog role favoured them. Give your head a wobble.

You mean you talk BS.

"I recall"

Oh - must be true.

I'm done with this anyway as my original wider point about not over egging Southgate's ability when he's had more than his fair share of luck seems completely lost on you.

But you know best.

BTW - Have we collapsed in the cricket like you said we would as well?

No? How can that be when you said we would?

 

[LeParisien]

England goal scorers last 7 games
Kane 6
Mings 2
Watkins
Sterling
Abraham
Saka
Shaw
Smith Rowe
Maguire
Stones

France scorers last 7 games
Mbappe 8
Benzema 4
Griezmann 3
Giroud 2
Rabiot 2
Ben Yedder
Guendouzi
Tchouameni

France are scoring more than a goal a game more than England. England did concede fewer though; just 3 against France’s 5.

What stands out is that England have two people who have scored more than a goal; Mings and Kane. France have five people who have scored more than once, including 4 forwards.

It does feel like England are the Harry Kane team which is crazy when you look at the attacking talent behind him who should be chipping in with goals.

The defence is a very good omen though. That wins you tournaments. But you do need more than one difference maker going forward otherwise you’ll be riding your luck.

 

[Beech]

You mean you talk BS.

"I recall"

Oh - must be true.

I'm done with this anyway as my original wider point about not over egging Southgate's ability when he's had more than his fair share of luck seems completely lost on you.

But you know best.

BTW - Have we collapsed in the cricket like you said we would as well?

No? How can that be when you said we would?

Never said I know best and I never said Southgate wasn't a lucky manager at times. Just called you out on something that simply wasn't true, which was us getting "stuffed" by Croatia. Maybe you have a different view on that word than I do, but a 2-1 loss after extra-time in a game of two halves is hardly worthy of the word.

You seem to be quite butt hurt for some reason.

 

[Beech]

England goal scorers last 7 games
Kane 6
Mings 2
Watkins
Sterling
Abraham
Saka
Shaw
Smith Rowe
Maguire
Stones

France scorers last 7 games
Mbappe 8
Benzema 4
Griezmann 3
Giroud 2
Rabiot 2
Ben Yedder
Guendouzi
Tchouameni

France are scoring more than a goal a game more than England. England did concede fewer though; just 3 against France’s 5.

What stands out is that England have two people who have scored more than a goal; Mings and Kane. France have five people who have scored more than once, including 4 forwards.

It does feel like England are the Harry Kane team which is crazy when you look at the attacking talent behind him who should be chipping in with goals.

The defence is a very good omen though. That wins you tournaments. But you do need more than one difference maker going forward otherwise you’ll be riding your luck.

The goals will come, though we'll never be a team that scores loads under Southgate in general. But we won't keep hitting the bar or post, or missing from a yard out. It wasn't that long ago that we put four past Hungary, and Ukraine before that. Two teams that rarely get pumped.

Part of the issue is nobody has really made that third attacking place alongside Kane and Sterling their own yet. Grealish, Saka and recently Bowen have all had moments but nobody has yet cemented a place in the side. Foden probably would have but he's missed an awful lot of games for England over the last year or so. Goals from midfield has been a big problem but if Southgate starts to select the right personal then a midfield three that includes Bellingham and Foden should definitely have goals in it moving forward.

 

[LeParisien]

The goals will come, though we'll never be a team that scores loads under Southgate in general. But we won't keep hitting the bar or post, or missing from a yard out. It wasn't that long ago that we put four past Hungary, and Ukraine before that. Two teams that rarely get pumped.

Part of the issue is nobody has really made that third attacking place alongside Kane and Sterling their own yet. Grealish, Saka and recently Bowen have all had moments but nobody has yet cemented a place in the side. Foden probably would have but he's missed an awful lot of games for England over the last year or so. Goals from midfield has been a big problem but if Southgate starts to select the right personal then a midfield three that includes Bellingham and Foden should definitely have goals in it moving forward.

But will that mean you concede more goals? You can’t play with Foden and Bellingham as 8s and win a major tournament.

 

[Beech]

But will that mean you concede more goals? You can’t play with Foden and Bellingham as 8s and win a major tournament.

Bellingham can play as a box to box midfielder. That's what he is in my eyes. Rice is the one holding, Bellingham playing ahead of him and then Foden the attacking focal point. We might definitely concede a few more goals but nobody will care as long as you're winning games and entertaining. But he's that good that at some point whoever the England manager is, we need to start building the team around Foden and making sure we're set up to get him involved and on the ball as much as possible.

There's genuinely English people that exist that would still moan their arses off if we won 1-0 each game on the way to actually winning something.

 

[Deuterz]

But Mount doesn’t suddenly lose his ability because he pulls on an England shirt ?

I think the problem is that Southgate is trying to wedge his best players together rather than coming up with the best system for the players at his disposal and then playing players who will have an impact in a role where they can shine.

Honestly when you look at the number of players who are shadows of their club selves when they play for England, it's obviously not a personnel issue. Trent is the most exciting attacking wing back in world football, plays for England and is barely even present. James is a bombarding monster of a wing-back, again a shadow.

Even the likes of Foden & Sancho (when he was in top form) looked like they had no idea what to do playing for us. Just strangers playing together. This is a group of highly technical, dangerous players and we manage to make them look so damn feeble. If Southgate goes back to the back 5 and plays pure defensive, counter attacking style I couldn't even be angry, because at least we'd have an identity.

 

[Deuterz]

Bellingham can play as a box to box midfielder. That's what he is in my eyes. Rice is the one holding, Bellingham playing ahead of him and then Foden the attacking focal point. We might definitely concede a few more goals but nobody will care as long as you're winning games and entertaining. But he's that good that at some point whoever the England manager is, we need to start building the team around Foden and making sure we're set up to get him involved and on the ball as much as possible.

There's genuinely English people that exist that would still moan their arses off if we won 1-0 each game on the way to actually winning something.

There isn't and you know there isn't. If we won every WC game 1-0 Southgate would get knighted, a statue built, and every single fan & pundit in the country would be jizzing themselves in to a frenzy. Not a single English person alive would care about style. It's when you play this way and win nothing that people care, because it's unbelievably frustrating to lose having been ultra passive all match.

But yeah I agree, build this team round Foden/James (Or Trent), Bellingham & Rice. That group are properly golden, top tier talents who should play every single match. Stick Foden in an advanced midfield role, he'll struggle with some of the tactical side of things but he will offer us a player in midfield who receives the ball and wants to actually go forward quickly.