England vs Italy

[Gmspurs]

Never said I know best and I never said Southgate wasn't a lucky manager at times. Just called you out on something that simply wasn't true, which was us getting "stuffed" by Croatia. Maybe you have a different view on that word than I do, but a 2-1 loss after extra-time in a game of two halves is hardly worthy of the word.

You seem to be quite butt hurt for some reason.

There you go with your assumptions again and trying to make things personal.

Dear oh dear

 

[Airfixx]

There isn't and you know there isn't. If we won every WC game 1-0 Southgate would get knighted, a statue built, and every single fan & pundit in the country would be jizzing themselves in to a frenzy. Not a single English person alive would care about style. It's when you play this way and win nothing that people care, because it's unbelievably frustrating to lose having been ultra passive all match.

AMEN.

But yeah I agree, build this team round Foden/James (Or Trent), Bellingham & Rice. That group are properly golden, top tier talents who should play every single match. Stick Foden in an advanced midfield role, he'll struggle with some of the tactical side of things but he will offer us a player in midfield who receives the ball and wants to actually go forward quickly.

XXX / XXX / XXX
XXX / Bellingham / Rice / Foden / XXX
Kane / XXX​

Writes itself.....

Still prefer James tho.

 

[Deuterz]

XXX / XXX / XXX
XXX / Bellingham / Rice / Foden / XXX
Kane / XXX​

Writes itself.....

Still prefer James tho.

Go back 5, tell James/Chilwell to do the same shit they do for Chelsea, put Walker, Tomori & Stones as the central defenders and throw someone to stretch defenders alongside Kane. Probably Sterling, although we could badly do with a Son type of player.

If we're struggling then sure, bring wide players and switch to a 4.

 

[LeParisien]

AMEN.

XXX / XXX / XXX
XXX / Bellingham / Rice / Foden / XXX
Kane / XXX​

Writes itself.....

Still prefer James tho.

To play 3 atb you need a couple of centrebacks that are very comfortable on the ball because that’s how you play out (as we know!).

Do England have that? Is that Walker and Stones? Either side of who?

When France play 3atb it is Pavard and Lucas H either side of Varane and they’re both comfortable playing out and do it fairly often for Bayern (either side of Upamecano!).

I haven’t seen any England games since the euros but that would seem a bit weakness to the attacking system.

 

[Airfixx]

Go back 5, tell James/Chilwell to do the same shit they do for Chelsea, put Walker, Tomori & Stones as the central defenders and throw someone to stretch defenders alongside Kane. Probably Sterling, although we could badly do with a Son type of player.

If we're struggling then sure, bring wide players and switch to a 4.

Sounds familiar....

Manager - Your England 11 (and formation)

So Southgate is getting it both barrels a the moment, and it's somewhat justified. I don't think any or many of us would pick his 11's most of the time, so what would you select if everyone is fit and available? Are you playing 3-5-2 or 4-3-3? My own 11 generally changes in personal by one or...

thefightingcock.co.uk

 

[Deuterz]

Sounds familiar....

Manager - Your England 11 (and formation)

So Southgate is getting it both barrels a the moment, and it's somewhat justified. I don't think any or many of us would pick his 11's most of the time, so what would you select if everyone is fit and available? Are you playing 3-5-2 or 4-3-3? My own 11 generally changes in personal by one or...

thefightingcock.co.uk

It makes a lot of sense. The back 3 has pace, can play out & you have the experience of Stones and Walker who play together at club level. Wing backs are used to playing in a 5 and some of the best around at doing it. Midfield 3 is lacking a bit in terms of someone who can try and dictate tempo, but England have lacked that for eternity. It's got loads of athleticism, technical ability, and Rice who is a brilliant shield. The two up top speaks for itself.

Give Conte this team and he wins the World Cup with it. There's not a shred of doubt in my mind about that.

 

[Tomo]

Issue with Southgate’s style is very simply. If you play ultra defensive and cautious football you HAVE TO WIN.

In football you can do one of two things as a manager, play good football or win games, obviously better to do both but you cannot run a whole tournament or season playing crap football and come away with nothing. The only exception are shit teams where the manager is negative because they have no other way e.g Burnley.

If you play a great style, develop a philosophy and build something special fans will accept going out to Brazil in the semi’s 4-3, they will be less happy with terrible football all the way to the semi’s and losing 1-0 with no shots on target.

It just looks odd having Kane, Grealish, Foden, Maddison, Mount, Abrahams, Saka, Bowen, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Reece James etc all with attacking threat and not being a particularly threatening team. It feels like a tremendous waste of potential. The balance of the side doesn’t feel right.

 

[Shadydan]

Issue with Southgate’s style is very simply. If you play ultra defensive and cautious football you HAVE TO WIN.

In football you can do one of two things as a manager, play good football or win games, obviously better to do both but you cannot run a whole tournament or season playing crap football and come away with nothing. The only exception are shit teams where the manager is negative because they have no other way e.g Burnley.

If you play a great style, develop a philosophy and build something special fans will accept going out to Brazil in the semi’s 4-3, they will be less happy with terrible football all the way to the semi’s and losing 1-0 with no shots on target.

It just looks odd having Kane, Grealish, Foden, Maddison, Mount, Abrahams, Saka, Bowen, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Reece James etc all with attacking threat and not being a particularly threatening team. It feels like a tremendous waste of potential. The balance of the side doesn’t feel right.

Yeah same was said about Jose, not many minded when we were top of the league but when we started losing that's when it became unacceptable.

 

[Shadydan]

England goal scorers last 7 games
Kane 6
Mings 2
Watkins
Sterling
Abraham
Saka
Shaw
Smith Rowe
Maguire
Stones

France scorers last 7 games
Mbappe 8
Benzema 4
Griezmann 3
Giroud 2
Rabiot 2
Ben Yedder
Guendouzi
Tchouameni

France are scoring more than a goal a game more than England. England did concede fewer though; just 3 against France’s 5.

What stands out is that England have two people who have scored more than a goal; Mings and Kane. France have five people who have scored more than once, including 4 forwards.

It does feel like England are the Harry Kane team which is crazy when you look at the attacking talent behind him who should be chipping in with goals.

The defence is a very good omen though. That wins you tournaments. But you do need more than one difference maker going forward otherwise you’ll be riding your luck.

And this is the entire problem, England are far too reliant on Kane, when he has a bad game or is of the boil he takes the brunt of the criticism

 

[fogueres]

Chiesa is always quite rubbish when I see him at club level but always looks a completely different player in an Italy shirt.

The purchase of Vlahovic and the non-renewal of Dybala is an indication of how the club is aiming at the recovery of Chiesa.

One cycle is over at Juventus and another is beginning. Chiesa has been called up to the national team for the European Championships as he belongs to Juventus.

 

[Deuterz]

To play 3 atb you need a couple of centrebacks that are very comfortable on the ball because that’s how you play out (as we know!).

Do England have that? Is that Walker and Stones? Either side of who?

When France play 3atb it is Pavard and Lucas H either side of Varane and they’re both comfortable playing out and do it fairly often for Bayern (either side of Upamecano!).

I haven’t seen any England games since the euros but that would seem a bit weakness to the attacking system.

Stones is great on the ball. I can't say I've seen enough of Tomori personally but from what I saw vs Italy and everything I've heard, he's comfortable in possession. Otherwise Walker is also good on the ball for a RCB as well.

Or, you throw Dier in there at the centre of the back three. As we know he's very comfortable in possession and knows that role well.

 

[Deleted member 15314]

Stones is great on the ball. I can't say I've seen enough of Tomori personally but from what I saw vs Italy and everything I've heard, he's comfortable in possession. Otherwise Walker is also good on the ball for a RCB as well.

Or, you throw Dier in there at the centre of the back three. As we know he's very comfortable in possession and knows that role well.

Do you remember that Nations league game against the Dutch where Stones and Walker gave us a masterclass in how not to play the ball as a CB? He's good on the ball until he isn't...

Tomori was almost Tanganga/Sachez level on the ball against Italy, multiple scuffed easy clearances, passes that were not properly weighted etc. He was absolute poopoo against Italy. Won't hold it against him, but that game was definitely not the showcase of a ball playing CB.

Dier also loves to randomly pass the ball into the opposition.

 

[Deleted member 15314]

And this is the entire problem, England are far too reliant on Kane, when he has a bad game or is of the boil he takes the brunt of the criticism

The mad thing is that, unlike Argentina where "pass it Messi" was every player's first thought, England seem to almost avoid giving Kane the ball. Grealish, Sterling, Saka etc. will go on endless dribbles and little passes while Kane stands around unmarked in the box.

Kane is the smartest player in the squad by a wide margin, they should dance to his beat, not the other way around. If I was Southgate I'd just tell all the forward, you get 3 touches before you either cross/shoot or pass it to Kane and let him figure something out.

 

[bunburyist]

The mad thing is that, unlike Argentina where "pass it Messi" was every player's first thought, England seem to almost avoid giving Kane the ball. Grealish, Sterling, Saka etc. will go on endless dribbles and little passes while Kane stands around unmarked in the box.

Kane is the smartest player in the squad by a wide margin, they should dance to his beat, not the other way around. If I was Southgate I'd just tell all the forward, you get 3 touches before you either cross/shoot or pass it to Kane and let him figure something out.

We urgently need a Scholes, Pirlo, Modric type in the middle to dictate tempo and play. Kane is too far up the pitch to be pivotal, and too easy to nullify as teams know if you mark Kane out the game, England are clueless.

I wonder that Bellingham doesn't have the capacity to move to that role. Seems to read the game properly

 

[Airfixx]

We urgently need a Scholes, Pirlo, Modric type in the middle to dictate tempo and play. Kane is too far up the pitch to be pivotal, and too easy to nullify as teams know if you mark Kane out the game, England are clueless.

I wonder that Bellingham doesn't have the capacity to move to that role. Seems to read the game properly

At his age, I'd guess that would take an abundance of coaching at club level.

 

[bunburyist]

At his age, I'd guess that would take an abundance of coaching at club level.

And/or playing alongside a player of that quality. Reus and Emre Can at Dortmund decent I suppose.

 

[Tomo]

We urgently need a Scholes, Pirlo, Modric type in the middle to dictate tempo and play. Kane is too far up the pitch to be pivotal, and too easy to nullify as teams know if you mark Kane out the game, England are clueless.

I wonder that Bellingham doesn't have the capacity to move to that role. Seems to read the game properly

We do but even if we had one I am not sure our system would play to their strengths. I think we need a tactical evolution not just a player one, we are well set defensively but seem poorly coached with the ball.

 

[Matt1882]

I feel like the wool that has been over peoples eyes since Russia is being taken off.

Southgate is a nobody. England are good enough to qualify for tournaments without a coach, let alone Southgate as coach.
They get to the tournaments and struggle to get past any one who is half decent.

WC 2018
Beat: Panama, Tunisia & Sweden.
Drew: Columbia
Lost - Belgium (twice) and Croatia

Euro 2020(1)
Beat: Croatia (IMO, they peaked at Russia 3 years earlier) Ukraine, Czech Rep, Germany (at their lowest ebb in ever) Denmark
Drew: Scotland (fucking shite)
*Lost: Italy - was a draw over 90 minutes but as it was the final, and we didn't win, it was a loss

Since Southgate, when have England beaten a top side when said side was at their peak?
I can't recall one.

 

[Deuterz]

Do you remember that Nations league game against the Dutch where Stones and Walker gave us a masterclass in how not to play the ball as a CB? He's good on the ball until he isn't...

Tomori was almost Tanganga/Sachez level on the ball against Italy, multiple scuffed easy clearances, passes that were not properly weighted etc. He was absolute poopoo against Italy. Won't hold it against him, but that game was definitely not the showcase of a ball playing CB.

Dier also loves to randomly pass the ball into the opposition.

Stones & Walker play for Manchester City. Regularly. They’re more than good enough ball players for England ffs. If they can play under Guardiola they can play for Southgate.

I also thought Tomori was good vs Italy and particularly comfortable in possession, so each to their own I guess. Especially since the whole system was awful and the two centre backs were regularly exposed.

We’ve not got a Van Djik. But we have modern defenders who like to play out.

 

[bunburyist]

We do but even if we had one I am not sure our system would play to their strengths. I think we need a tactical evolution not just a player one, we are well set defensively but seem poorly coached with the ball.

I feel like Southgate's idea was to build from the back, be defensively secure. Kinda done that, England are hard to beat, but hasn't really evolved since then. Don't think Southgate has it in him