Dele

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Any more lectures?
You really are self righteous, and condescending aren't you. You can tell people to F*** off in one post, and then ask for respect in another. Who are you to police this site, and make comment on how people should post their opinions/views

What exactly are you persisting with, when Dele is clearly not very good for Spurs right now, or the last few seasons, in my opinion/view, and why should I back that up with stats, videos etc when anyone with a clue, can work that out for themselves.

This isn't my only post on the matter, and if you cared to look, you can see for yourself.
I'm also perfectly entitled to voice my disagreement with other posters, as we are both entitled to do, and if you don't like this fact, then maybe you should go elswhere, and talk down to some 9 year olds on a school football forum.

I eagerly wait your reply, and please don't be condesending to me again; it's not a good look.

People who have a different opinion from yours about Dele "make you sick".

You've called me "self-righteous", "condescending", "obsessed", "blinkered"

I've not posted anything towards you personally other than retaliating to the above by telling you to fuck off with this shit.

But hey, you respect other peoples opinions by not making snide little comments.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Nope, just perturbed by the focus on scoring moves instead of the other 52 minutes. Either way, big man, Guids!!!!!!! Gotta say I had my fingers crossed that you would take this route. Been let down before by some on this board that I'd previously had faith in. Well done you!!! Continued Dele support notwithstanding you've gone up in my estimation...but being the misanthrope that I am I hate people that go up in my estimation. Prick!!!!*

Honestly, there's no real utility in going over his Mura performance for me. First off, it was fucking Mura. And secondly, I've had the belief that Dele should be replaced many seasons ago. In a PM convo right now with someone talking about a MFer losing the ball in dangerous situations (around the center circle) and how I used to absolutely crush Dele for it in his first deeper MF season (2017-18 I believe, Wembley).

Tehre is really nothing this player can do to redeem himself in my eyes because I never rated him. He's so technically poor, IMO, that I never had time for his scoring exploits. For me, goals are the work of a functioning team and not the player tapping them in. So I'd always have preferred an actual footballer to him. UNless he starts scoring goals like Messi vs Granada on the regular. Then I'll have to change my tune.


*j/k of course.

OK Todd.

And you might have me mixed up with someone else re the "shiny stuff" goal output etc. I have never had this front and centre of any of my arguments in support of him, suffice to say the pointy end of the pitch is where I've always liked him but I've argued in favour of his performances for 3yrs or so now when he's played as an 8 or 6 and that his goals shouldn't be the measure of his output, for many it appears that it is (if played as a 10 then sure it becomes valid context). Even when he was scoring loads he missed twice as many, same with his approach play. But I have always accepted this as part of his game, I don't care if he's missing an open goal so long as his presence creates one or he's scored one of the 5 he's presented with.

I'm not attempting to persuade anyone, least of all you, I'm not Jesus or a preacher showing the way to a flock of disciples. I do, however, find it frustrating when his thread lights up flowing a game when the team gets a poor result and is made to be the culprit when clearly this absolutely wasn't the case.

Given our boring circular previous debates, I was excited to flesh out this game though.

Cheers

 

[DPN9]

People who have a different opinion from yours about Dele "make you sick".

You've called me "self-righteous", "condescending", "obsessed", "blinkered"

I've not posted anything towards you personally other than retaliating to the above by telling you to fuck off with this shit.

But hey, you respect other peoples opinions by not making snide little comments.

There you go again, twisting my words. I actually said I'm, sick of people posting stats, which could also mean being fed up, or annoyed with, and in no way means the same as "people make me sick" who post stats or have a differing opinion.

Quite a difference of meaning there, and you've left a few pithy comments relating to other peoples' opinions/views too, so don't give me all that mate, and practice what you preach.

You will no doubt ask for a screenshot of such comments which I'll happily cut and paste for you.

If you're not offended by being labelled "obsessed or blinkered", why do you keep bringing it up? If you have been slighted in any way by these words, then I wholeheartedly apologise.

As for self-righteous and condescending, I feel that these are definitely valid adjectives, and I do not apologise for using them.

This discussion of ours is an eternal merry go round, that quite frankly, i'm getting bored with being on; I've said all I can really, and I think you're fully aware of my opinions/views, that Dele, and stats aren't great, so as far as i'm concerned, end of.

Feel free to reply, but I don't have any more energy to expend on you.

Have a wonderful evening, and I hope this forum/thread has given me as much pleasure as it has you.

 

[todd1882]

And you might have me mixed up with someone else re the "shiny stuff" goal output etc. I have never had this front and centre of any of my arguments in support of him, suffice to say the pointy end of the pitch is where I've always liked him but I've argued in favour of his performances for 3yrs or so now when he's played as an 8 or 6 and that his goals shouldn't be the measure of his output, for many it appears that it is (if played as a 10 then sure it becomes valid context). Even when he was scoring loads he missed twice as many, same with his approach play. But I have always accepted this as part of his game, I don't care if he's missing an open goal so long as his presence creates one or he's scored one of the 5 he's presented with.

Again, Dele was rated by folks (you included) for his goals, firs and foremost. There was nothing else to his game Guids. In the first 2 seasons there was nothing else to his game, nothing to justify his presence but his goals. It's nice to deny it now so as to avoid the shame of such a superficial rating of a player but that's the only reason anyone ever rated him was his goals. There was nothing else to his play. He was given a 'free role' because he was a liability elsewhere and provided nothing but his goals. It is quite disingenuous to suggest you rated him because of other footballing aspects. And even if you did, which you nor anyone did, those other qualities would not have made him outstanding 100M player. It was the goals whether or not you would like to admit that or not. No one rated him for anything else, not even Poch. It was the goals. They've dried up and now he sits on the bench because there never was anything else to his game that was outstanding...or even PL level.

I'm not attempting to persuade anyone, least of all you, I'm not Jesus or a preacher showing the way to a flock of disciples. I do, however, find it frustrating when his thread lights up flowing a game when the team gets a poor result and is made to be the culprit when clearly this absolutely wasn't the case.

He's stayed long enough to become the villain. Should have moved on seasons ago. Blame him and DL...and supporters such as yourself who support and sing his song. I'm sure DL hears the songs and still thinks he's a 100M player. He's gone sour and there's nothing to see but the bad now. If he's around next season then you know DL cares very little about the teams vibe and success. Can't imagine Conte will have it though.

Given our boring circular previous debates, I was excited to flesh out this game though.

Would fleshing it out make up for the last 4+ seasons of shit? I mean, you've rarely admitted he was shit previously. No matter what anyone has come up with he was always good for some reason or another. So I can only assume he was good in this game in your opinion as he was in the previous 4 seasons. If you've never allowed for him to be bad previously it would jsut be more talking points from you re: Dele.

 

[DPN9]

Again, Dele was rated by folks (you included) for his goals, firs and foremost. There was nothing else to his game Guids. In the first 2 seasons there was nothing else to his game, nothing to justify his presence but his goals. It's nice to deny it now so as to avoid the shame of such a superficial rating of a player but that's the only reason anyone ever rated him was his goals. There was nothing else to his play. He was given a 'free role' because he was a liability elsewhere and provided nothing but his goals. It is quite disingenuous to suggest you rated him because of other footballing aspects. And even if you did, which you nor anyone did, those other qualities would not have made him outstanding 100M player. It was the goals whether or not you would like to admit that or not. No one rated him for anything else, not even Poch. It was the goals. They've dried up and now he sits on the bench because there never was anything else to his game that was outstanding...or even PL level.


He's stayed long enough to become the villain. Should have moved on seasons ago. Blame him and DL...and supporters such as yourself who support and sing his song. I'm sure DL hears the songs and still thinks he's a 100M player. He's gone sour and there's nothing to see but the bad now. If he's around next season then you know DL cares very little about the teams vibe and success. Can't imagine Conte will have it though.


Would fleshing it out make up for the last 4+ seasons of shit? I mean, you've rarely admitted he was shit previously. No matter what anyone has come up with he was always good for some reason or another. So I can only assume he was good in this game in your opinion as he was in the previous 4 seasons. If you've never allowed for him to be bad previously it would jsut be more talking points from you re: Dele.

I wonder if Mr G will be able to counter this; I've had to call it a day with him, and can't believe how much time I've spent on here.
This post is pretty irrefutable, and any contrary replies will be interesting to read later on tonight.
Best of luck, and thanks for the great posts.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Again, Dele was rated by folks (you included) for his goals, firs and foremost. There was nothing else to his game Guids. In the first 2 seasons there was nothing else to his game, nothing to justify his presence but his goals. It's nice to deny it now so as to avoid the shame of such a superficial rating of a player but that's the only reason anyone ever rated him was his goals. There was nothing else to his play. He was given a 'free role' because he was a liability elsewhere and provided nothing but his goals. It is quite disingenuous to suggest you rated him because of other footballing aspects. And even if you did, which you nor anyone did, those other qualities would not have made him outstanding 100M player. It was the goals whether or not you would like to admit that or not. No one rated him for anything else, not even Poch. It was the goals. They've dried up and now he sits on the bench because there never was anything else to his game that was outstanding...or even PL level.


He's stayed long enough to become the villain. Should have moved on seasons ago. Blame him and DL...and supporters such as yourself who support and sing his song. I'm sure DL hears the songs and still thinks he's a 100M player. He's gone sour and there's nothing to see but the bad now. If he's around next season then you know DL cares very little about the teams vibe and success. Can't imagine Conte will have it though.


Would fleshing it out make up for the last 4+ seasons of shit? I mean, you've rarely admitted he was shit previously. No matter what anyone has come up with he was always good for some reason or another. So I can only assume he was good in this game in your opinion as he was in the previous 4 seasons. If you've never allowed for him to be bad previously it would jsut be more talking points from you re: Dele.

You've definitely got me confused with someone else.

I love tons of stuff about him, it's why I love him and rate him, not just goals but his whole contribution to the team. Goals are just the fun part, to be enjoyed by all supporters, image a game of football if fans didn't cheer a goal!! But here I am and here I've always been when there are no goals, I've not stopped posting in here, still analysing how well he played as a 6 or an 8 (or how poorly if he had a bad game).

I've expressed where I think he's poor, where I think he's best suited even to the point saying the best thing for him is to move if we are to be a team that doesn't want to play with the ball and prefer to hoof it up the pitch.

Had it have been just about the goals then either you or I would never have spoken, that's logical right because I'd have nothing to say if that was my mantra because there have been no goals for three years. Whilst people have been saying because of this he's finished I've been saying he's doing other stuff. Posted evidence of this only for many (not you) to say he's fallen off a cliff because he doesn't score anymore. This isn't nor has it ever been by measure, the past three seasons of posting history is testament to this.

Going through his performance against Mura, under a new manager would have been at least an opportunity to cast aside baggage, but sounds like that's something you aren't prepared to do. No problem.

 

[todd1882]

I love tons of stuff about him

What? What besides the goals is there to rate with this player? The way he play "ole defense"? His flicks in the MF? His astounding loss of possession numbers? And when did you start rating these things? And did these things make him a 100M player or whatever nonsense number folks wanna throw out? This is some utter horseshit, Guids. No one, friggin no one rates anything besides his scoring yet now, when he is not scoring, his most vocal supporter on this board say he didn't rate the goals FFS. C'mon man!!!! I do not believe you. I've seen you disregard his shitty marking and positional sense and all the other fuckups he does. I do not believe you.

And we were on last season about this player and he was shit in a game but got a pen for the 7th goal which you celebrated and ignored the rest of the shit. That convo is on these pages my man. It is nonsense to suggest your take on this player was 'bigger' than his goals. There is nothing else to this player. And no one suggests there is anything to this player other than his goals. Feel free to expound on his many attributes that you rate that are not his goals.

 

[Go on son]

Please. Watch this. DELE vs MURA

Dele was actually very good. Had the final. Ball been better, he could have scored 3 in the first 10 minutes. Pressing well and excellent movement.

Our attacks almost always ended with Kane losing the ball.

Simple. Without Eriksen we have zero service.

Couple of decent runs, small bit of pressing, got ran by easily in some of those clips all against ns mura and were saying dele was very good. Im sure we could find a reel of doherty doing some half decent things but dosnt mean he should be on the pitch

 

[Go on son]

You've definitely got me confused with someone else.

I love tons of stuff about him, it's why I love him and rate him, not just goals but his whole contribution to the team. Goals are just the fun part, to be enjoyed by all supporters, image a game of football if fans didn't cheer a goal!! But here I am and here I've always been when there are no goals, I've not stopped posting in here, still analysing how well he played as a 6 or an 8 (or how poorly if he had a bad game).

I've expressed where I think he's poor, where I think he's best suited even to the point saying the best thing for him is to move if we are to be a team that doesn't want to play with the ball and prefer to hoof it up the pitch.

Had it have been just about the goals then either you or I would never have spoken, that's logical right because I'd have nothing to say if that was my mantra because there have been no goals for three years. Whilst people have been saying because of this he's finished I've been saying he's doing other stuff. Posted evidence of this only for many (not you) to say he's fallen off a cliff because he doesn't score anymore. This isn't nor has it ever been by measure, the past three seasons of posting history is testament to this.

Going through his performance against Mura, under a new manager would have been at least an opportunity to cast aside baggage, but sounds like that's something you aren't prepared to do. No problem.

But he wasnt good against mura!! He did nothing to cast aside any baggage and was first player off. He should be shining and busting a gut to show conte what he can do but didnt. Hes certainly not the only one in fairness to him

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

What? What besides the goals is there to rate with this player? The way he play "ole defense"? His flicks in the MF? His astounding loss of possession numbers? And when did you start rating these things? And did these things make him a 100M player or whatever nonsense number folks wanna throw out? This is some utter horseshit, Guids. No one, friggin no one rates anything besides his scoring yet now, when he is not scoring, his most vocal supporter on this board say he didn't rate the goals FFS. C'mon man!!!! I do not believe you. I've seen you disregard his shitty marking and positional sense and all the other fuckups he does. I do not believe you.

And we were on last season about this player and he was shit in a game but got a pen for the 7th goal which you celebrated and ignored the rest of the shit. That convo is on these pages my man. It is nonsense to suggest your take on this player was 'bigger' than his goals. There is nothing else to this player. And no one suggests there is anything to this player other than his goals. Feel free to expound on his many attributes that you rate that are not his goals.

If he hasn't scored for 3 seasons what the fuck do you think I've been posting about him when he plays as a 6 or an 8?

Like I said I suspect you have me confused with someone else or have had me put into a metaphorical pigeon hole (as we are all guilty of doing at some point).

I celebrate every goal Tottenham scores, even the own goals believe it or not. Mad concept I know, it might catch on at football matches.

 

[todd1882]

If he hasn't scored for 3 seasons what the fuck do you think I've been posting about him when he plays as a 6 or an 8?

It's been 4+ and we've been wondering about the nonsense you've been posting too. And when has Dele played the 6 FFS? You've been busying yourself with runnning stats and other propaganda. but trust me, most here are wondering WTF you're on about too. You don't mention goals so you grasp at straws where you can like telling me all the wonderful stuff he does off-screen.

Like I said I suspect you have me confused with someone else or have had me put into a metaphorical pigeon hole (as we are all guilty of doing at some point).

No Guids, I know exactly who I'm talking to and about. Remember, I told you 3 or more seasons ago he would not get 10 more caps for England because he is shit. You disagreed with me then and lo and behold Gary has agreed with me and there has been no outcry for this kids inclusion because the rest of the football world does not rate all those awesome things you see him do that are not the scoring of goals.

Now, tell us all the other things you rate about this player that have nothing to do with his goals. It's not enough to claim you do as a way to get out of admitting the shiny objects attracted. You must prove it now. Or jsut say "yeah, I was attracted to the goals just like most people".

 

[Deleted member 13260]

Really? If a guy scores then he was good? You show 5 or 6 plays of "what if" but what about the other 52 minutes he was on the field? Do they count or are they forgiven if a player scores? This is why, perhaps, you and many others have been so caught off-guard by his shitness. You were blinded by the shiny objects and paid no attention to his all around shitness. Now all we are getting is the shitness but it was there before. It was there in spades but Dele was WC to some because he ignored all other responsibility on the field and tried to score goals to justify his place.

And just because Dele makes a run doesn't mean we should be looking to work it to him. That's saying we want it to be Dele FC. His production even in his best times never justified such post-hoc analysis. So we really want to predicate our whole attack on a player so devoid of actual footballing abiilty? Just because he might make a run into the box and tap one in?

It's been almost 5 years since his 'WC season' of 2016-17. I can't believe every single person on this board isn't completely fed up with his very presence. It's the sign of a moribund club to let personnel stagnate as such.

Wasn't speaking about my personal opinion. If a player scores then in general 'people', pundits, fans etc will suggest the rest of their game was better than it was.
Personally I prefer to look at both sides of an argument, minimising emotional input to form what I regard as the most balanced opinion I'm capable of - which I do in football, politics, and life in general where possible.

I haven't been blinded by anything. In fact I would argue the other way round - because Dele has been poor for so long, you are no longer capable of objectively viewing positives within his game.
I pointed out some positives with his positioning and late runs in the box. Then also pointed out his own poor passing, and positioning when it comes to helping out the team. He seems desperate to save his career to me, and took up some good but arguably selfish positions at times... but good goal scorers should be selfish is another counter argument to that.

The point I'm making really is that to regard everything about any players game as purely positive or purely negative is flawed, biased and simply lacking the necessary objectiveness to form an opinion of any credible value.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

It's been 4+ and we've been wondering about the nonsense you've been posting too. And when has Dele played the 6 FFS? You've been busying yourself with runnning stats and other propaganda. but trust me, most here are wondering WTF you're on about too. You don't mention goals so you grasp at straws where you can like telling me all the wonderful stuff he does off-screen.

No Guids, I know exactly who I'm talking to and about. Remember, I told you 3 or more seasons ago he would not get 10 more caps for England because he is shit. You disagreed with me then and lo and behold Gary has agreed with me and there has been no outcry for this kids inclusion because the rest of the football world does not rate all those awesome things you see him do that are not the scoring of goals.

Now, tell us all the other things you rate about this player that have nothing to do with his goals. It's not enough to claim you do as a way to get out of admitting the shiny objects attracted. You must prove it now. Or jsut say "yeah, I was attracted to the goals just like most people".

He played in a double pivot for Poch for a number of games (when our Midfield has gone to shit with Wanyamma and Dembele injured he was plugging holes with Sissoko, Winks and Dele).

He's not going to play for England if he's not playing for his club. That's why he's not been selected for England, there are scores of players who also fall into this category other than Dele too. Southgate has spoken at length about this too. (I also agree with this policy too). (It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Dier gets a call up before the World Cup because he's playing well and the likes of Maguire aren't - perhaps not ideal for England prep seeing as it's not far off).

You only have to see what a posted last week or so to get a gist of my posts over the last few years, there's also a search function that might come in handy if you have the desire to filter and review them, make that cup of tea, kick your shoes off and fill your boots I know you'll enjoy them all.

 

[todd1882]

If a player scores then in general 'people', pundits, fans etc will suggest the rest of their game was better than it was.

...exactly the point I am trying to make with this player. His rating in his first two years was because of his goals not his overall play which I actually believe hindered us. My feeling is we would have been better off with a more competent footballer having that free role because Dele's technical deficiencies let him and us down way too often. But folks disregard the other 89 minutes if he scored one.

Personally I prefer to look at both sides of an argument, minimising emotional input to form what I regard as the most balanced opinion I'm capable of - which I do in football, politics, and life in general where possible.

Excellent!

I haven't been blinded by anything. In fact I would argue the other way round - because Dele has been poor for so long, you are no longer capable of objectively viewing positives within his game.

No, sir. I have no time for his "positives" because even if you summed them up and multiplied them by 10 it still wouldn't be justification for this player still being around. There is no utility in luxuriating in his positives. His negatives are so glaring to sit and talk about his 'positives' is really jsut a waste of time. Should we sit and talk about Vinnie Janssen's 'positives'? And if you don't start with acknowledgement (not jsut in passing but sincere immersion in them) of a player that has been shit for 4+ seasons then all you're doing is spinning happy clappy BS IMO.

The point I'm making really is that to regard everything about any players game as purely positive or purely negative is flawed, biased and simply lacking the necessary objectiveness to form an opinion of any credible value.

Sure, but no one has said any player is purely positive or negative. ON the whole he is a net negative though and that's what matter...a big net negative because there is so little positive to his game. And I felt that way even when he was scoring as a more competent player would have done better in the same free role as him. I hate Bruno Fernandes as a player as he is in the same mold of useless #10 but I would freely admit that he woul dhave don't way better than Dele in that position because he has a pass on him and hell of a shot, he just has more threat.

 

[sammyspurs]

Honest question.... Seriously what happened to Dele?

I’ve addressed this a few times over the years, and my view is that he stopped enjoying football when he wasn’t allowed to enjoy and express himself the way he wanted.

Call it discipline, but we actually helped ruin him, because we failed to nurture the talent he had. He should have been allowed to run amok, and get sent off instead of being made to play boring sensible football at 18.

Not everyone can be Ledley King or Gary Lineker, should have just let him be.

 

[todd1882]

He played in a double pivot for Poch for a number of games (when our Midfield has gone to shit with Wanyamma and Dembele injured he was plugging holes with Sissoko, Winks and Dele).

That ain't the 6 though is it?

He's not going to play for England if he's not playing for his club. That's why he's not been selected for England,

He was playing for his team when I made the call, Guids! And you know it. He's not playing for England because he was dropped based on performance...while he was still playing for us.

You only have to see what a posted last week or so to get a gist of my posts over the last few years, there's also a search function that might come in handy if you have the desire to filter and review them, make that cup of tea, kick your shoes off and fill your boots I know you'll enjoy them all.

Surprising copout for someone that came up huge with that apology earlier. I have followed you posts on Dele since I came over here. I think our 'bet' occured in 2018. It's easy enough to restate what you rate about him with jsut a few words, like Modric - vision, weight of pass, workrate, intelligence, all-around MF game with no weaknesses, first touch to space - always, close control, etc etc etc etc. Simple!

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

That ain't the 6 though is it?


He was playing for his team when I made the call, Guids! And you know it. He's not playing for England because he was dropped based on performance...while he was still playing for us.


Surprising copout for someone that came up huge with that apology earlier. I have followed you posts on Dele since I came over here. I think our 'bet' occured in 2018. It's easy enough to restate what you rate about him with jsut a few words, like Modric - vision, weight of pass, workrate, intelligence, all-around MF game with no weaknesses, first touch to space - always, close control, etc etc etc etc. Simple!

A 6 can play in the double pivot. As can any manner of other combinations like having two 6's a 6 + an 8 etc.. (Dier was a 6 when he played with Dembele in our double pivot, who was could be passed of as an 8 just one example).

he might well have been playing for us then, I honestly can't even remember when it was. But he's not getting into the England team if he's not playing for his club team.

I made an apology because I was wrong.

My posts on him are extremely consistent, from when he was scoring to when he wasn't/isn't to the point of even drawing attention to some that he wasn't clinical in front of goal when he was scoring loads (because he missed loads, Kane too).

 

[todd1882]

A 6 can play in the double pivot. As can any manner of other combinations like having two 6's a 6 + an 8 etc.. (Dier was a 6 when he played with Dembele in our double pivot, who was could be passed of as an 8 just one example).

he might well have been playing for us then, I honestly can't even remember when it was. But he's not getting into the England team if he's not playing for his club team.

I made an apology because I was wrong.

My posts on him are extremely consistent, from when he was scoring to when he wasn't/isn't to the point of even drawing attention to some that he wasn't clinical in front of goal when he was scoring loads (because he missed loads, Kane too).

He never played the 6 for us. And when he did play in the double pivot either he was moved or some other in-game tactical change occurred because we suffered. Look back at the City games where they constantly overloaded his side because he had no idea what he was doing. Or any of the many other games where he was moved like the Woolwich game where Giroud equalized late on. He was a liability.

And all that is fluff, I want to know what you rate him for besides the goals. I've been waiting for it. It's very easy. You've neglected to do it because there is nothing and you know you'd just be exposing yourself. Love to hear all the awesome things he's good at.

 

[Nabil Bentaleb]

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

He never played the 6 for us. And when he did play in the double pivot either he was moved or some other in-game tactical change occurred because we suffered. Look back at the City games where they constantly overloaded his side because he had no idea what he was doing. Or any of the many other games where he was moved like the Woolwich game where Giroud equalized late on. He was a liability.

And all that is fluff, I want to know what you rate him for besides the goals. I've been waiting for it. It's very easy. You've neglected to do it because there is nothing and you know you'd just be exposing yourself. Love to hear all the awesome things he's good at.

he has played as a 6.

Then search my posts, they are all there mate, scores and scores and scores of them, some with you directly as well you know.