Yeah, City really went down hill since the lost Gareth Barry....
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Yeah, City really went down hill since the lost Gareth Barry....
Well they hadn't won the league since they sold him. Until last years record breaking season.
Saying that. They replaced him. My point was when he missed games. He was crucial to them in that period. When Dier is out, we literally don't have anyone worth replacing him and what he brings. Wanyama is basically a cabbage now until proven he can actually play at our level again.
Apart from not being very dynamic, which is one of the reasons why Newcastle, Fulham and ManU created more chances, Dier is also not a better passer than Wanyama, that’s a complete myth. Wanyama makes as many passes per 90 just about, but makes more key passes, creates more chances, and unlike Dier, can also move with the ball.
Strange then that most people believe Dier has a greater passing range than Wanyama, and also has more assists etc.
Stats, stats and more stats.
Dier makes more interceptions, more successful passes, makes more forward passes and has more assists per 90 minutes than Wanyama too.
But that was based off Dier last season and Wanyamas best ever season in his career ever (16/17).
If we base it off of last season, which was the Wanyama we got following injury:
Dier makes more passes, creates more chances, makes more forward passes, makes more successful passes, makes more interceptions, got more assists, committed lower fouls, won more aerial duels etc.
Expecting Wanyama to get back to where he was 2 years ago is like expecting the same from Danny Rose.
Last season Dier had 2 assists. The season before (when Wanyama clocked meaningful minutes) he had one. That’s 0.07 per 90 to Wanyama’s 0.03 per 90. But in those two seasons he pissed Dier for key passes 0.93 per 90 to 0.44 and chances created 0.96 to 0.53 per 90. Wanyama made more tackles per 90 (1.85 to 1.30).
Dier did average 12 more passes a game and more forward passes per game but some of that is because he dropped into the back line or actually started in the back line, and even then simply passing forwards is no indication of quality, which key passes and created are.
Successful take ons (ie moving out of a press) Wanyama 1.52 per 90min, Dier 0.40
Wanyama also scored four goals to Dier’s none.
See above for assists. It not even worth talking about, neither make many Dier 2 last year, Wanyama 1 the year before. Being able to whack a long floaty diagonal might impress some, but making key passes is more useful. Wanyama makes double those per 90 than Dier.
Wanyama has also missed 30 games because of injury during that time. The last time Dier was out with injury was back in 2016 when he missed 5 games. You're basing your opinion on the idea that Wanyama will be back to his best, where his best season for us was on a smaller pitch than the one we played on last season and the forthcoming season ahead.
I don't mind Wanyama, but as a previous poster said it's somewhat like looking at Roses form prior to injuries. You simply have to take the human element into account. Dier cost £4m and offers solutions in 3 different positions if need be, to disregard that level of importance for the price we paid is a little shortsighted.
I hope Wanyama gets back to his solid best but Dier really ain't as bad as some make out in my opinion
Why are we bringing up assists? Wanyama has never in a single season got more assists than Dier has as a Tottenham player. What's the use bringing up key pass and chance created stats if they ultimately lead to nothing. Dier creates less chances and makes less key passes yet has MORE assists!? Ultimately, they are DEFENSIVE midfielders. I couldn't give a shit about how many assists they get.
Really don't care about tackle stats. For all we know, could just be Wanyama being out of position. Especially when Dier absolutely trumps him in the interceptions department which is much better indicator of positional sense.
Stats still remain that Dier makes more passes, more forward passes, more successful passes, commits less fouls and makes more interceptions per 90 than Wanyama.
Baring in mind this is Wanyama from TWO seasons ago. Before injuries hit him. The Wanyama we got last year was no better than Sissoko.
We had our best season for 50 years with Wanyama replacing Dier in midfield, better than the one before with Dier and the one after with Dier, how about that stat?
Dier played 13 times as a DM that season and we had home advantage in a season where we lost only 4 points at home all year.
He was fit to play a fair bit of last year towards the end of the season, do you ever wonder why he wasn't selected that much?
I hope he gets back to his best but he's been injured this season so far so I really struggle to see why you dig out Dier like you do. I don't really know what more you could want or ask for in a £4m signing
The year we signed Sissoko. Coincidence?
You're going on like it's Wanyama or Dier - they both bring their uses as highlighted by the stats we've both posted. People always complained when we started Dier/Wanyama midfield 2 but it never bothered me. I can't really remember if we ever lost with those two in midfield but Matic/Kante showed it's possible to have two defensive minded midfielders and win things. Partner Winks with them (or Eriksen) and even better.
That best season in 50 years where Dier played more minutes than Wanyama did.
I don't mind Dier as a CB so much, but I detest watching him play in midfield.
Moving on, I think the rest of your post makes excellent points. I am not sure Wanyama will ever be the same player. There were rumblings last season that he hadn't rebuilt trust in his knee. You could see by the way he was mistiming challenges that something was not quite right.
Yeah, 30 minutes more, majority of them in defence, with all of Wanyama's in Cm.
And that’s how it should be. I think Dier is a very underrated CB, he’s ahead of Alderwireld’s development curve at the same age, with very similar qualities.
Some fair points, it definitely remains to be seen if we get the real Wanyama back, but that wasn’t really what I was arguing, it was based on what they both are at their best. If both are at their best then Wanyama would be my choice every week. In fact I’d never see Dier in CM again. I think we’ve got a couple of kids here who I’d rather see given a chance perform his remit with more dynamism and less limitations.
I think we desperately lack vim and tempo in that area, CM/DM/6 and Dier’s like footballing mogadon. Sturdy but very ponderous and by numbers.
I think we could probably improve on a fully fit Wanyama too, but either way we need some tempo and alacrity in that area.
For me the long term areas I'd be looking to improve first XI wise are at left back, both the central midfield positions and I'd have one eye on CB with Toby & Jans circumstances at present. Now that is looks like we have a sturdy option with Lucas for a few years & Son doesn't have to do his national service for me the central midfield is crucial to get right and whilst I'd rather a busy, Kante type DM I'd rather we focus our efforts on a genuinely class LB and a proper Dembele replacement above a Dier or Wanyama replacement. I like Davies but he's a steady Eddie & Rose just doesn't look like he'all regain his form of years gone by so I'd be getting my scouts looking at all sorts of fullback options, an utterly class Central midfielder and be telling them to keep an eye on a playmaker should Eriksen wade away from his pomp. Lobotka could be the kind of player you're after, I'm sure he's someone that's on our radar
Pretty much agree. Both 6amd 8 or hybrid 6/8 midfielders and a LB are priorities.
If we solve the midfield issue, we solve the potential CB issue by just dropping Dier back.
Have you seen Lyon’s Mendy (LB)? Think he’d be right up Poch’s street.
Dier is a CB. There shouldn’t really be a discussion around his attributes as a DM/CM. Sure he will play there until we have more CM depth, but that should be the first place we look to strengthen. Can Dier play there? Sure. Should he be? No.
I haven't seen anything of him but I've just had a quick look and he has a big frame and can run with the ball so I'll keep my eye out for him. YouTube videos are always risky but he does seem like a strong build like his brother at left back.
One to keep your eye on as well is a kid that plays for PSG called Arthur Zagre. He's only a kid but he has really good feet and can bamboozle a team his current age group. Seems like a great prospect
I think he's absolutely garbage at centre back personally. In a back three maybe where Toby, Sanchez or Vertonghen, who are all better than Dier will ever be at centre half, can help him through a game.
But in a back four, it's a no no. Not really sure I agree on the Alderweireld comparison either. At the same age, Toby was playing for a team winning La Liga and getting to a final of a Champions League and only a year away from signing for us, where he quickly established himself as one of the best centre backs in Europe.
There is a reason Dier doesn't play centre back often for Spurs and Poch signed Sanchez and Foyth (who both play ahead of him in a back four in the cup competitions) and a reason why he hasn't played there for England in years. He simply isn't good enough to play there.
It always confused me. As a defensive midfielder he's positionally brilliant and regularly switched on but at centre half it's like he loses his positional sense and all types on concentration levels. Maybe that's just because he's training as a midfielder and not a defender. I don't know.
All I know is I'd be fucking furious if we sold Alderweireld and the best Pochettino could come up with was to play Dier instead.