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Does anyone know how the seedings / coeffcients are worked out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_UEFA_Europa_League#First_qualifying_round
West Ham seeded right through to the Group Stages basically, and Southampton seeded in 3QR. Why? Neither have been in Europe for touching 10 years. Southampton qualified by coming SEVENTH out of Twenty in a mediocre league, and West Ham qualified by having the least bookings / fouls etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_UEFA_Europa_League#First_qualifying_round
West Ham seeded right through to the Group Stages basically, and Southampton seeded in 3QR. Why? Neither have been in Europe for touching 10 years. Southampton qualified by coming SEVENTH out of Twenty in a mediocre league, and West Ham qualified by having the least bookings / fouls etc.
It's because they are English, basicallyDoes anyone know how the seedings / coeffcients are worked out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_UEFA_Europa_League#First_qualifying_round
West Ham seeded right through to the Group Stages basically, and Southampton seeded in 3QR. Why? Neither have been in Europe for touching 10 years. Southampton qualified by coming SEVENTH out of Twenty in a mediocre league, and West Ham qualified by having the least bookings / fouls etc.
I'm not saying it's not winnable but I'll certainly take that argument up with you.
This season we could've won at Old Trafford and got any point against Villa or Stoke or Newcastle at home or, beaten one of them plus Palace at home or away or Burnley away and we'd have been 4th.
In the Europa we went out in the last 32, we've never been beyond the quarters whereas we've finished 4th twice and been a point or so away as well.
This year we had to beat Fiorentina and then negotiate 4 more ties over 7 more games against the likes of Roma, Sevilla, Wolfsburg, Napoli, Zenit, Ajax, Inter etc
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Does anyone know how the seedings / coeffcients are worked out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_UEFA_Europa_League#First_qualifying_round
West Ham seeded right through to the Group Stages basically, and Southampton seeded in 3QR. Why? Neither have been in Europe for touching 10 years. Southampton qualified by coming SEVENTH out of Twenty in a mediocre league, and West Ham qualified by having the least bookings / fouls etc.
Basically the higher the country you represent in Europe is on this table...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#Current_ranking
...The more 'base' points you have. Thus England being 2nd (and previously 1st) any team from this country that qualifies will be in a decent position in the Europa League. This is all before you get points for results/qualifying etc. So basically teams like West Ham and Southampton will get a decent starter co-efficient because of the other teams from England doing well in European competition. The same way a team like Racing Santander would from Spain's dominance, for example. Unless teams from countries like Romania and Hungary have prolonged runs in Europe then their co-efficient and number of teams qualifying for each competition won't change.
That was a very simple version of events. You can find a detailed view here: http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/calc.html
Thanks for that Simmo, the myth that Europa League is the easier route to Champions League than finishing 4th, and all we have to do is 'take it seriously' is a pet hate of mine.
As has been pointed out Hammers and Saints 'seeding' is based on the efforts of other English clubs, including ourselves.
However, IF they make it to the group stage neither would be seeded (ie Pot 1), AFAIK.
We will be in Pot 1, not sure about Liverpool, and my guess is it's something like pots 3 or 4 for the other English teams. This will give them a tough draw, though some of their group games may well be more interesting than ours because of that.
However, IF they make it to the group stage neither would be seeded (ie Pot 1), AFAIK.
We will be in Pot 1, not sure about Liverpool, and my guess is it's something like pots 3 or 4 for the other English teams. This will give them a tough draw, though some of their group games may well be more interesting than ours because of that.
I think we'll be Pot 1, Liverpool in 2. West Ham and Saints in 4 should they qualify and there are no 'upsets' so to speak. Of course, some minnows may get through so the threshold for each group becomes a bit lower. I linked to a page yesterday with some reasoning, the same website has 'predicted' the groups based upon the top seeds in each qualifying stage going through.
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/seedel2015.html
Interestingly, West Ham could end up unseeded for the Playoff round. Would be funny to see them play 8 games and get knocked out in August.
There is little point in me saying what I think would improve the tournament but I will say the 2-2 against Sevilla was one of the best atmospheres of any game I have been to.
The reason it is given less credence here is that we play more games than any other country with the additional cup, and the fact that it earns clubs a pittance in comparison to TV money - which means the clubs are constantly looking at ways to finish higher up the table as oppose to play 19 matches and win less than you do by finishing 8th (or something stupid). It's a potty perspective but football is a potty fucking business.
The reason it is given less credence here is that we play more games than any other country with the additional cup, and the fact that it earns clubs a pittance in comparison to TV money - which means the clubs are constantly looking at ways to finish higher up the table as oppose to play 19 matches and win less than you do by finishing 8th (or something stupid). It's a potty perspective but football is a potty fucking business.
I take your point, but have you seen the other teams in those qualifiers? 4th place in the Armenian League...Latvian cup winners...winners of The Rock Cup (Gibraltar)!!Does anyone know how the seedings / coeffcients are worked out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_UEFA_Europa_League#First_qualifying_round
West Ham seeded right through to the Group Stages basically, and Southampton seeded in 3QR. Why? Neither have been in Europe for touching 10 years. Southampton qualified by coming SEVENTH out of Twenty in a mediocre league, and West Ham qualified by having the least bookings / fouls etc.
If they weren't seeded it'd be a strange one!
I think when people say that they don't mean if we take it seriously we'll definitely win, but more that if we prioritise it, we actually have a very good chance of winning it (as backed up by bookies putting us as like top 3 favourite to win it each year). Dnipro proved this year it would be entirely possible for us to reach the final. If we continue to prioritise Stoke on the following Sunday over Napoli on the Thursday, we'll forever be on this merry-go-round.
The fact of the matter is, we're far more likely to finish outside the top 4 each season. By then reducing our chances in EL by then chasing that 4th spot again means we just fail in both.
Surely we're capable of mounting a serious challenge in the EL and finishing top 6/7 each season? This top 4 chase seems to take everything out of us, only to then finish 5th every fucking year! It's not conducive to success.
Imagine finishing 4th next season. CL qualifiers. We might even get knocked out before the group stage after 38 games slogging it out.
Imagine winning the Europa League. Just imagine that. That would be like no feeling I've experienced as a football fan in my life time.
Hi
Millbanks
, yes I agree that we do have a decent chance of winning the Europa League, and I too am desperate for that glory- MUCH MUCH prefer to win the Europa league than say just get to the knock out rounds of the Champions League. While I don't specifically know what we need to do to improve our Europa League results, I agree I wish we would prioritise the EL during the knock out rounds, risk a few losses in the league, and get to the final.I suppose in the end, money talks and our manager will be in trouble if we finish mid table, while reaching say the EL semis or final, but not winning it.
Just checked the odds, we're 16-1 to win the Europa League next year, and 6-1 to finish top 4.
I don't think the Sunday is fucking up the Thursday, I think it's the other way round. Thursday/Friday travels and a match mean fatigue if you are a high intensity, high pressing, cover more ground than any opposition team (as is Poch's philosophy) and, you lose time to prepare and drill for opposition on the Sunday. No matter who you're playing it's important but, as much as it's tough when it's a Chelski or United, it's just as critical when it's Stoke or the Scammers to plan for their own blood and guts game-plans.
Before Xmas we have the 6 games to deal with and, I'll say it again before somebody else brings it up as an objection, if you're Champions League you get a few Wednesday/Sundays, Tuesday/Saturday's etc so it is different (and they generally have deeper, better squads).
Having one eye on Sunday is fucking up Thursday AND Sunday.
Personally - go all out Thursday - see who's fit and put best XI out Sunday. We tend to be average at best after EL anyway, and that's with rotation. There's no point not fully committing to either one.
2 games in a week...it's been happening for years now. How long can that be an excuse for?
What I'm saying is it's catch 22. I agree half arsed usually results in fucking up both but, either way, pre Xmas you get the loss of prep time for Sunday matches - games at Premier League level can easily be won and lost down to some minor, specific tactics and loss of preparation for individuals, set pieces, analysis of opponents, contingency plans is an issue.
Post Xmas you've got the onset of cumulative fatigue if you play the way we do. Who can honestly say half the team weren't completely fucked from March?!
I think you need to play second string and youngsters for group games and try to keep first XI focussed on league matches. If qualification looks iffy by game 4-6 then fine, no choice but to draft them in more.
The trick is then when it builds up on all fronts by Feb/March hopefully you have options and not too jacketed a squad. Poch cocked that up completely as far as I'm concerned around the cup final.
He's even wrong, the match could be abandoned...
Bookies tend to win. We therefore stand more chance of finishing top 4 than winning the Europa. But you know what...fuck it. 16/1 is worth taking as a flier. :avbpray:Hi
I suppose in the end, money talks and our manager will be in trouble if we finish mid table, while reaching say the EL semis or final, but not winning it.
Just checked the odds, we're 16-1 to win the Europa League next year, and 6-1 to finish top 4.
I don't think you can tackle the group stage with a second string team. Their lack of cohesion and understanding always shows, and with kids thrown in the mix the lack of experience is also evident.
Rotation is key. I agree. We need the right balance. But from a personal point of view, I'd rather give 100% on a Thursday and piece a squad together for Sunday than the reverse. We're a European team, playing in Europe every year. How long can we continue to just not give a fuck and chase this exceedingly difficult CL dream? And if that is the dream - lets go all out to win EL and fuck our Prem form off. Does it matter if we finish 12th and win EL? I would but some would say no. We should be (and are) capable of balancing the two.
But fucking off the group stage is what gave us a tough draw against Fiorentina. Finishing top of the group and avoiding 3rd placed CL teams is vital to longevity in the EL. We can ill afford to come second in a sub-standard group again, imo.
I agree with the bookies as well, in so much as we are more likely to finish 4th than win EL.
Just look at our recent history. Twice top 4 in the last ten years, quite often 5th, but not even a European semi-final let alone winning the EL.
Indeed our closest was way back in Jol's time when we had a real go at it and got to the quarter finals on the back of an all-time British record of eight consecutive European wins. Then we got the worst draw possible, Sevilla players were diving like crazy, the ref fell for their play acting, and 'we wuz robbed'.
There are so many factors that conspire against an English team winning the EL, it's no surprise only a mega-team like Chelsea have managed it in its current reincarnation (as opposed to Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup).
Just look at our recent history. Twice top 4 in the last ten years, quite often 5th, but not even a European semi-final let alone winning the EL.
Indeed our closest was way back in Jol's time when we had a real go at it and got to the quarter finals on the back of an all-time British record of eight consecutive European wins. Then we got the worst draw possible, Sevilla players were diving like crazy, the ref fell for their play acting, and 'we wuz robbed'.
There are so many factors that conspire against an English team winning the EL, it's no surprise only a mega-team like Chelsea have managed it in its current reincarnation (as opposed to Fairs Cup and UEFA Cup).