Heung-Min Son (손흥민)

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Fair enough, he's got good workrate and two footedness, but that still makes him a fairly limited player.

I'm not saying he's a bad player.

What's with this weird obsession to not accept that he's not perfect?
No obsession. No one is perfect... but you seem to have a weird obsession to state that he is not perfect when that much is obvious about any player.
 
No obsession. No one is perfect... but you seem to have a weird obsession to state that he is not perfect when that much is obvious about any player.
My original comment was actually praising him. Saying that he'd developed other aspects of his game. Only for one user to take exception with the obvious statement that Son is a limited player, and the rest of you to pile on.

There's a reason Son has never got past even 15 league goals a season.
 
My original comment was actually praising him. Saying that he'd developed other aspects of his game. Only for one user to take exception with the obvious statement that Son is a limited player, and the rest of you to pile on.

There's a reason Son has never got past even 15 league goals a season.
All is good with that first paragraph, but no need for the second is what I am getting at. There is a reason why Messi doesn't score 80 goals a season.. and a reason why Joe Hart doesn't score more than 1 goal a season. It's just a rather pointless debate.
 
My original comment was actually praising him. Saying that he'd developed other aspects of his game. Only for one user to take exception with the obvious statement that Son is a limited player, and the rest of you to pile on.

There's a reason Son has never got past even 15 league goals a season.
Sure he's got things he could be better at like every player including Kane but to call Son limited is fairly ridiculous don't you think?

He's literally the most versatile attacker we've got. He's literally played LW, RW, Striker, False 9 all with success. There was a period where he has been deployed as wingback during his career.

He has the most open play goal contributions per minute since he's joined Spurs. Yes, more than Kane.

Best finisher in the PL by xG since he's joined Spurs

One of the most lethal players in the world on the counter

One of the fastest players on the team with and without the ball

Ability to dribble past 7 players (Burnley, Chelsea goals) and finish

Left foot, right foot

Can shoot and dangerous from 25+ out

Takes corners

I could go on...
 
but to call Son limited is fairly ridiculous don't you think?
No it's not. His world class level performances are limited to a very specific set of tactical scenarios, same as Auba, Vardy, and now Werner. That's the point.

You need to create the conditions where he can get a run in behind and leave the defenders in the dust. Otherwise he struggles massively. Look at Burnley, West Brom etc, where we were denied that space in behind, or Chelsea where he wasn't given time or space on the ball. He doesn't have that Ndombele/Kane like bit of guile/agility to earn himself space/time or fouls.

Mourinho (and Poch too actually) done well to create those scenarios. Right now our entire attacking philosophy is built around getting Son into a 1v1 against the keeper. He plays LW, RW and "striker" in a very similar way, running on to through balls from Kane or someone else for a 1v1 with the keeper. Maybe a quick stepover before lauching a curler into the far corner. He's very good at that (maybe the best in the world) but that's not versitality. Tactically it's the same exact thing.

When has he played false 9? He's played WB but the less said about that the better, don't you think?

Maybe it'll help if I compare him to Salah. He's similarly rapid and capable of making a run in behind for a through ball or one over the top, going 1v1 with the keeper (but less clinical). However, Salah has much better first touch, dribbling and can use his strength to hold of defenders. He can bring his teammates into the game through hold up play or one touch combinations in a way Son has never done. The only tactical consideration Klopp has to make for Salah is that he doesn't like to track back.

That's what I mean by limited.
 
No it's not. His world class level performances are limited to a very specific set of tactical scenarios, same as Auba, Vardy, and now Werner. That's the point.

You need to create the conditions where he can get a run in behind and leave the defenders in the dust. Otherwise he struggles massively. Look at Burnley, West Brom etc, where we were denied that space in behind, or Chelsea where he wasn't given time or space on the ball. He doesn't have that Ndombele/Kane like bit of guile/agility to earn himself space/time or fouls.

Mourinho (and Poch too actually) done well to create those scenarios. Right now our entire attacking philosophy is built around getting Son into a 1v1 against the keeper. He plays LW, RW and "striker" in a very similar way, running on to through balls from Kane or someone else for a 1v1 with the keeper. Maybe a quick stepover before lauching a curler into the far corner. He's very good at that (maybe the best in the world) but that's not versitality. Tactically it's the same exact thing.

When has he played false 9? He's played WB but the less said about that the better, don't you think?

Maybe it'll help if I compare him to Salah. He's similarly rapid and capable of making a run in behind for a through ball or one over the top, going 1v1 with the keeper (but less clinical). However, Salah has much better first touch, dribbling and can use his strength to hold of defenders. He can bring his teammates into the game through hold up play or one touch combinations in a way Son has never done. The only tactical consideration Klopp has to make for Salah is that he doesn't like to track back.

That's what I mean by limited.
Remember that you are seeing Son based on this season alone. This is what he was instructed to do under Jose’s style of football
 
Remember that you are seeing Son based on this season alone. This is what he was instructed to do under Jose’s style of football
No I'm not. I didn't start watching Spurs this season.
 
He doesn't have that Ndombele/Kane like bit of guile/agility to earn himself space/time or fouls.

Son Heung-Min GIF by MolaTV
 
He has the most open play goal contributions per minute since he's joined Spurs. Yes, more than Kane.
That's quite a few stipulations. Where did you get that stat? It doesn't sound like it'd be true.

I get league GA per minute (since 15/16) of:
0.010268 for Kane
0.008950 for Son

I can't be bothered to do the calculations based on open play because it's a lot of extra work and that seems like a capricious stipulation to intentionally create this particular stat. I'm also personally not a big fan of this relatively new concept of mixing goals and assists as if they're essentially the same. There's a reason goalscorers are paid the megabucks over and beyond providers.

It's probably also worth nothing that until this season bucked all the trends, Son consistently outperformed his xA while Kane consistently underperformed his, with the implication that Kane has gotten fewer assists than would be expected from the quality of chances he has created and Son more than expected.

Edit for you salty Son fans downvoting me: I'm a fan of accuracy and not stats carefully crafted to try to portray Son as a more important player than Kane. The irony is that I'm perfectly fine with accepting them as equals but you had to go and cherry pick stats to suggest that Son is better/more important than Kane.

Maybe look at the numbers of points per season won by different players if you want a better gauge: in past seasons, Kane has been the most valuable player in the league in terms of points won. And if you're going to equate assists with goals, let's be consistent about it. Despite playing the same number of games and this being, thus far, Son's best ever season with a Messi-tier overperformance of expectation, Son has contributed to ~50% of all Spurs' goals while Kane has contributed to ~75%. Both are fantastic, irreplaceable players but I really don't think you want to pick at the threads of this one.
 
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Sure he's got things he could be better at like every player including Kane but to call Son limited is fairly ridiculous don't you think?

He's literally the most versatile attacker we've got. He's literally played LW, RW, Striker, False 9 all with success. There was a period where he has been deployed as wingback during his career.

He has the most open play goal contributions per minute since he's joined Spurs. Yes, more than Kane.

Best finisher in the PL by xG since he's joined Spurs

One of the most lethal players in the world on the counter

One of the fastest players on the team with and without the ball

Ability to dribble past 7 players (Burnley, Chelsea goals) and finish

Left foot, right foot

Can shoot and dangerous from 25+ out

Takes corners

I could go on...
Was about to write a longer post but this sums it up perfectly.
 
That's quite a few stipulations. Where did you get that stat? It doesn't sound like it'd be true.

I get league GA per minute (since 15/16) of:
0.010268 for Kane
0.008950 for Son

Kane has made 28 penalties for Spurs since the start of 15/16. Subtract from his total goals. You'll see that Son has a higher open play goal contribution rate than Kane.

Assist stats in general are entirely dependent on who you're passing to, with a fair number being a negligible contribution to the goal. I think they can only reliably be judged by actually watching the passes on an individual basis.
Same can be said about goals.

I can't be bothered to do the calculations based on open play because it's a lot of extra work and that seems like a capricious stipulation to intentionally create this particular stat.
It's the fair way to do an apples to apples comparison between two attacking players, particularly when comparing a player that takes penalties and one that does not. If there's a better way to do an apples to apples comparison, please do tell me.
 
One of players with the highest conversion rate.
One of very few players with no weak foot.
#6 scorer in the top 5 leagues.
#2 scorer in premier league.
Highly likely to win the puskas award.
One of the top 10 attacking players listed by ESPN.

But he's "limited" and "patchy". :sonpoint:
 
One of players with the highest conversion rate.
One of very few players with no weak foot.
#6 scorer in the top 5 leagues.
#2 scorer in premier league.
Highly likely to win the puskas award.
One of the top 10 attacking players listed by ESPN.

But he's "limited" and "patchy". :sonpoint:
Bear in mind though, 99.9% of the fanbase love Son. One guy has called him limited on this thread and he's been, rightly, subject to a pile on disproving it.
 
You lot are actually fucking delusional jesus christ!

One of players with the highest conversion rate.
One of very few players with no weak foot.
#6 scorer in the top 5 leagues.
#2 scorer in premier league.
Highly likely to win the puskas award.
One of the top 10 attacking players listed by ESPN.

But he's "limited" and "patchy". :sonpoint:
Conversion rate means that you shoot well when given the opportunity to do. Which is what I already acknowldeged. Not having a weak foot is part of that. Doesn't make him complete.

Even Kane's not a complete player but he's so much more complete than Son. If not for the lack of pace/agility he'd be the perfect player. Heading, tackles, long/short passing, scoring every type of goal, defensive set pieces, press resistence etc. That's what makes Kane complete, even if never scores a 60 yard solo run.

Son is one of the best forwards in the world but he's still not complete. Admitting such an obvious thing does us (or Son) no harm.

Who cares some contrived stats, or one great solo goal per season.

Son can't hold up play very well, FACT.

Son is not an elite dribbler like Grealish, Hazard, Mane, Salah etc. FACT.

He can't head the ball like Dele. FACT.

He can't ping a ball like KDB, James, Ziyech etc. FACT.

Just to be clear to the blinkered. I'm not saying Son is shit and we should sell. He just has a very narrow effective operating range. More so than players like Sterling, Salah, Mane, and others who can receive the ball ahead of a relatively packed defence and make something happen.

Chelsea have the same problem with Werner (except he's a shit finisher too), doesn't make him an outright shit player. They just have to use him the right way, get him those through balls to run on to and use his pace. Don't expect him to orchastrate play or outmuscle CBs.
 
You lot are actually fucking delusional jesus christ!


Conversion rate means that you shoot well when given the opportunity to do. Which is what I already acknowldeged. Not having a weak foot is part of that. Doesn't make him complete.

Even Kane's not a complete player but he's so much more complete than Son. If not for the lack of pace/agility he'd be the perfect player. Heading, tackles, long/short passing, scoring every type of goal, defensive set pieces, press resistence etc. That's what makes Kane complete, even if never scores a 60 yard solo run.

Son is one of the best forwards in the world but he's still not complete. Admitting such an obvious thing does us (or Son) no harm.

Who cares some contrived stats, or one great solo goal per season.

Son can't hold up play very well, FACT.

Son is not an elite dribbler like Grealish, Hazard, Mane, Salah etc. FACT.

He can't head the ball like Dele. FACT.

He can't ping a ball like KDB, James, Ziyech etc. FACT.

Just to be clear to the blinkered. I'm not saying Son is shit and we should sell. He just has a very narrow effective operating range. More so than players like Sterling, Salah, Mane, and others who can receive the ball ahead of a relatively packed defence and make something happen.

Chelsea have the same problem with Werner (except he's a shit finisher too), doesn't make him an outright shit player. They just have to use him the right way, get him those through balls to run on to and use his pace. Don't expect him to orchastrate play or outmuscle CBs.
I don’t agree with some of the things you’ve said but you are obviously entitled to your opinion. I think the issue is that people don’t get what your point is. You just said yourself that no player is ‘complete’ by your standards and definitions. So where are you going with this? It just seems like you are nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. You can literally find flaws in every player including Messi, Ronaldo but that in no way takes away from their individual brilliance and importance to a team. Overall, what Son brings to Spurs has been arguably the most important as he’s the most potent goalscorer on the #1 team in the league so whatever you’re saying is irrelevant at this point. What he brings to the table more than makes up for his inability in the air or having an inconsistent first touch.

Also, someone posted a video of Sons recent international game against Mexico(?). His role there seems to be more of a playmaker rather than a goalscorer (someone correct me if I’m wrong here). From what I saw he’s definitely as ‘complete’ as they come. Passing, vision, hold/link up, crosses, dribbling etc. Its all there.
 
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You lot are actually fucking delusional jesus christ!


Conversion rate means that you shoot well when given the opportunity to do. Which is what I already acknowldeged. Not having a weak foot is part of that. Doesn't make him complete.

Even Kane's not a complete player but he's so much more complete than Son. If not for the lack of pace/agility he'd be the perfect player. Heading, tackles, long/short passing, scoring every type of goal, defensive set pieces, press resistence etc. That's what makes Kane complete, even if never scores a 60 yard solo run.

Son is one of the best forwards in the world but he's still not complete. Admitting such an obvious thing does us (or Son) no harm.

Who cares some contrived stats, or one great solo goal per season.

Son can't hold up play very well, FACT.

Son is not an elite dribbler like Grealish, Hazard, Mane, Salah etc. FACT.

He can't head the ball like Dele. FACT.

He can't ping a ball like KDB, James, Ziyech etc. FACT.

Just to be clear to the blinkered. I'm not saying Son is shit and we should sell. He just has a very narrow effective operating range. More so than players like Sterling, Salah, Mane, and others who can receive the ball ahead of a relatively packed defence and make something happen.

Chelsea have the same problem with Werner (except he's a shit finisher too), doesn't make him an outright shit player. They just have to use him the right way, get him those through balls to run on to and use his pace. Don't expect him to orchastrate play or outmuscle CBs.
Don't worry too much about these lots. It's a normal thing on this thread apparently. People comparing Kane and Son like we are unable to play both at the same time. People criticizing Son for scoring and not scoring.
 
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