Levy / ENIC

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LMAO the absolute fucking state of a tiny % of our fans when "consistently overperformed" and "trophies are irrelevant" end up in the same fucking sentence.

Winning trophies is PART OF PERFORMING you dolt! League position is just one marker! All our years of finishing above Woolwich are completely unimportant if they end up winning just one league title. Football isn't about being stable in average league positions for 10 years but never actually achieving a thing, that's not how sport works.
Sport doesn’t work by a bunch of fans demanding we win a trophy because « we’re a big club ».

Clubs have resources and they try to use those resources to win trophies. For most teams the chances of winning something are small.

You think only trophy winners are doing anything worthwhile in sport?

Edit: Also, those two statements were in separate sentences (notice the full stop). Trophies won are factually irrelevant to whether we overperformed relative to our resources. And it’s a massively inconvenient truth to those who want to say we are a joke on the pitch. Fatal in fact.
 
Sport doesn’t work by a bunch of fans demanding we win a trophy because « we’re a big club ».

Clubs have resources and they try to use those resources to win trophies. For most teams the chances of winning something are small.

You think only trophy winners are doing anything worthwhile in sport?

I think you're absolutely fucking kidding yourself if you consider trophies won to be irrelevant when it comes to tracking progress for a top six club in England over a large span of time. To the point of total delusion.

There are OTHER factors, yes. And absolutely you can do something worthwhile without winning. But calling them "irrelevant" is just ENIC kool-aid sipping. At our level, winning something is part of marking our progress.

Nobody "demands" trophies btw. They just actually recognise their existence and don't treat them like some scary swear word that we have no right to even discuss as we're not an oil club.
 
I think you're absolutely fucking kidding yourself if you consider trophies won to be irrelevant when it comes to tracking progress for a top six club in England over a large span of time. To the point of total delusion.

There are OTHER factors, yes. And absolutely you can do something worthwhile without winning. But calling them "irrelevant" is just ENIC kool-aid sipping. At our level, winning something is part of marking our progress.

Nobody "demands" trophies btw. They just actually recognise their existence and don't treat them like some scary swear word that we have no right to even discuss as we're not an oil club.
Complete straw man.

Whether we overperformed relative to our resources is not the same as « tracking progress ». You’re moving the goalposts.

Whether we overperform relative to our resources depends on two things:
1) our resources relative to our competitors
2) our performance relative to our competitors

Notice that trophies don’t figure in that.

The point is that if we have overperformed relative to our resources in 10 of the past 12 seasons then a lot of the hyperbole and empty anger looks a bit silly. Fact is we have done pretty well on the pitch. Not amazingly but a strong passing grade.
 
They don't?
Correct.

Trophies are only necessarily relevant to the teams with the most and the second most resources.

The team with the most resources cannot overperform - they either win or they underperform.

The second most resourced team wins if they overperform.

The third team can overperform and not win anything by finishing second. Or they might overperform a bit more and win.

The fourth team can overperform by finishing third or second and still not win trophies.

The fifth team can overperform by finishing second, third or fourth and not win any trophies.

The sixth team can overperform by finishing second, third, fourth, or fifth and still not win any trophies.

Even in the historically high performing period of the past 10 years, we have mostly been the sixth best resources team and recently the fifth best resourced team. As you can see, we can overperform many ways without winning a trophy.
 
Complete straw man.

Whether we overperformed relative to our resources is not the same as « tracking progress ». You’re moving the goalposts.

Whether we overperform relative to our resources depends on two things:
1) our resources relative to our competitors
2) our performance relative to our competitors

Notice that trophies don’t figure in that.

The point is that if we have overperformed relative to our resources in 10 of the past 12 seasons then a lot of the hyperbole and empty anger looks a bit silly. Fact is we have done pretty well on the pitch. Not amazingly but a strong passing grade.

No I'm not. My goalposts are just completely different from your goalposts. You think that its all about average league position and I think trophies are a big factor and would rather win a single league title than have 10 years slowly creeping up an average league position table.

We've "overperformed" in one metric alone that you overvalue whilst undervaluing trophies won. We've technically outperformed Woolwich even if they win a league this season by your metrics. Its completely fucking nutty & doesn't reflect what football fans actually want at all.
 
How do less well resourced clubs winning trophies figure into that?

Spurs were richer than Woolwich in 2019-20 but Woolwich won the FA Cup, for instance.

I mean I don't know why I even bother responding to be honest.
Because Woolwich overperformed?

What is difficult to understand?

The greater the overperformance required, the less likely it is to happen. You are more likely to need luck to make it happen.

Many are using the fact that unlikely things haven’t happened as a stick to beat the ownership with. That’s ridiculous. Could we have won something with a bit of luck? Sure. Maybe if that Sissoko handball wasn’t given we’d be champions league winners. Or maybe if we weren’t getting knocked out of the fa cup by Sheffield United, Middlesbrough, Everton, Norwich or Crystal Palace then we might have had a better chance. Quality managers on top wages might reasonably be expected to do better against that sort of opposition in the past 5 years. That’s not on Levy.
 
Because Woolwich overperformed?

What is difficult to understand?

The greater the overperformance required, the less likely it is to happen. You are more likely to need luck to make it happen.

Many are using the fact that unlikely things haven’t happened as a stick to beat the ownership with. That’s ridiculous. Could we have won something with a bit of luck? Sure. Maybe if that Sissoko handball wasn’t given we’d be champions league winners. Or maybe if we weren’t getting knocked out of the fa cup by Sheffield United, Middlesbrough, Everton, Norwich or Crystal Palace then we might have had a better chance. Quality managers on top wages might reasonably be expected to do better against that sort of opposition in the past 5 years. That’s not on Levy.

>Can't say we're lucky to have had Harry Kane and that Levy had nothing to do with that.

> It's not on Levy that the managers he appoints and pays large sums of money and then signs players for have failed over a period of 15 years. All bad luck/the managers fault/just stop blaming my hero please.
 
No I'm not. My goalposts are just completely different from your goalposts. You think that its all about average league position and I think trophies are a big factor and would rather win a single league title than have 10 years slowly creeping up an average league position table.

We've "overperformed" in one metric alone that you overvalue whilst undervaluing trophies won. We've technically outperformed Woolwich even if they win a league this season by your metrics. Its completely fucking nutty & doesn't reflect what football fans actually want at all.
We’ve been knocked out the FA Cup by Sheffield United, Middlesbrough, Everton, Norwich, and Crystal Palace. Those are the teams that have ended our hunt for one of two realistic trophies.

It’s clear our managers haven’t been prioritising those competitions.

I can’t really explain probabilities to you anymore though. For Man City to win a competition they need to pull a heart out of the pack of cards. For us to win a competition we need to pick out a 2 of clubs or 3 of spades. Sure that very unlikely think might happen once in a while but the odds are firmly stacked with the teams with the most resources.

For 98% of teams, success is measured in how well they do with the resources at their disposal, not trophies won. The less resources you have, the less relevant trophies become.
 
>Can't say we're lucky to have had Harry Kane and that Levy had nothing to do with that.

> It's not on Levy that the managers he appoints and pays large sums of money and then signs players for have failed over a period of 15 years. All bad luck/the managers fault/just stop blaming my hero please.
You’re completely incoherent now. You’re resorting to sketches instead of dealing with the arguments.

Go to bed.
 
Is this the millenium version of Chelsea, that could have been avoided, and the trophies won by them during the Chelski years could be filling the empty THFC trophy cabinet?

:levylol:

I suppose we wouldn't have the best paid chairman in the league charging the highest ticket prices in the world if Levy had done the right thing at that point though......

Phew.


No relevance but nvm
 
Correct.

Trophies are only necessarily relevant to the teams with the most and the second most resources.

The team with the most resources cannot overperform - they either win or they underperform.

The second most resourced team wins if they overperform.

The third team can overperform and not win anything by finishing second. Or they might overperform a bit more and win.

The fourth team can overperform by finishing third or second and still not win trophies.

The fifth team can overperform by finishing second, third or fourth and not win any trophies.

The sixth team can overperform by finishing second, third, fourth, or fifth and still not win any trophies.

Even in the historically high performing period of the past 10 years, we have mostly been the sixth best resources team and recently the fifth best resourced team. As you can see, we can overperform many ways without winning a trophy.
Not long now til lunacy
 
Because Woolwich overperformed?

What is difficult to understand?
Easy to understand. They overperformed. Again. For the fourth time in the past decade.

The ninth wealthiest club in the world, if run competently by a chairman with a trophy-winning mentality, could absolutely challenge for a domestic trophy.
 
Joe Lewis on his boat.

holly madison entourage GIF


He don’t give a shit.
Arnt they related or something?
 
Easy to understand. They overperformed. Again. For the fourth time in the past decade.

The ninth wealthiest club in the world, if run competently by a chairman with a trophy-winning mentality, could absolutely challenge for a domestic trophy.
Not when the said Chairman is mentally ill, a deranged power crazed psychopath. Perhaps the garlic muncher is right - we have completely overachieved when you consider the aforementioned, deluded wanker is making key footballing decisions. How we have done this well despite Levy is quite frankly staggering
 
Here's where I draw the distinction.

If the claim is that Spurs should have accomplished the things City and Chelsea have accomplished (11 PL titles, 2 European Cups, 2 Europa Leagues, 7 FA Cups and 9 League Cups between them), then that's totally unreasonable and fails to properly weigh the reality that those clubs have done what they've done using financial backing beyond what even the immensely wealthy ENIC is capable of.

If the claim is that City and Chelsea's emergence as super clubs forgives Spurs' TOTAL trophy drought when the clubs own failures have been manifest, the club de-emphasizes competing in the "lesser" cups while selling fans and media on its managerial hires as "trophy-winning", in objective and in-arguable terms spends less of its turnover on its squad than ANY peer club in Europe and for good measure CHOSE to join the breakaway ESL project alongside City and Chelsea rather than standing with the game and structure and competitions that petro-doping has poisoned, then, well, I'm afraid I can't agree.

In general, rich clubs win and winning clubs get rich. But in ABSOLUTELY EVERY INSTANCE WHATSOEVER that there has been tension between making money and winning football competitions, Daniel Levy has explicitly, unambiguously and aggressively chosen the latter, and on the very rare occasions during which any reflection on that is provided for public consumption we are fed lies and bullshit whose contempt glows white-hot on the surface.

Daniel Levy's values are as clear as day to anyone who cares to see them. That might be forgivable in the presence of a well-laid and zealously executed plan to bring the competitive success that is the reason a football club exists. We don't have that, and more and more people seem to be awakening to that reality. I suspect those ranks will swell much further in the next 18 months.
WTF is this supposed to mean?
In general, rich clubs win and winning clubs get rich. But in ABSOLUTELY EVERY INSTANCE WHATSOEVER that there has been tension between making money and winning football competitions, Daniel Levy has explicitly, unambiguously and aggressively chosen the latter, and on the very rare occasions during which any reflection on that is provided for public consumption we are fed lies and bullshit whose contempt glows white-hot on the surface.

Surely you meant to say former and not latter?
 
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