It should. No matter who the manager of Spurs is, there overall objectives are the same whether it is Tim or LvG. If they can't match them they are not good enough.
Not timmy hate btw
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It should. No matter who the manager of Spurs is, there overall objectives are the same whether it is Tim or LvG. If they can't match them they are not good enough.
Yes, some improvement - but he used the term 'very good' which I think is a stretch
The objectives are set for the club, this season it was to go for top 4 - that hasnt changed just because the manager has.
That I have less faith in Sherwood to achieve it does not change the fact thats what we are trying to do.
I would prefer LVG because I have more confidence he can achieve the aims of the club. That doesnt mean I expect more, the expectation is the same.
My personal expectation is that we are the best we can be, whatever that may be.
Which is why I lost faith in Harry, I felt we hit his limit - not ours. And why I was ok with AVB going, for similar reasons. And why, now, I think Sherwood isnt right for the job at this time.
But you argued with me that LvG should be judged in the same light as Harry?
Not getting into with you again, but that seems rather contradictory.
Which amount to our end of season objectives.
Its the same thing for me. I would expect us to play far better football under LvG than Sherwood, and I have no expectations whatsoever that TS will have us playing dazzling football and charging to up the table.
He has us still well in contention, and has exceded what I expected results wise. As I said before, he is meeting my expectations in the way we play.
Im not dissapointed because I didnt expect more. And Im not worried, because this season is still a write off and transition.
The reason there is still hope, is because of TS, not in spite of him.
If you were demanding 4th from AVB, then fair enough.
The people that gave AVB "at least a year" for the players to gel, have no right to start using the club line to bash TS.
If people expect the same from TS, than they would from LvG, then they only have themselves to blame when they end up dissapointed.
Are we actually suggesting that a caretaker should be expected to achieve the same as a world class manager?
Our objective under AVB was 4th.
Of course its the aim...what should we aim for? 5th? 7th?
The club have a target.
That doesnt mean I expect TS to either achieve it, or play total football while getting there.
Getting there will be an over achievement this season.
Because LvG is a world class manager.
Ergo, he should be expected to do better than an average/good manager.
The average/good manager shouldnt be expected to achieve the same as the world class manager.
Is that odd?
Was there anyone who, at the start of the season, expected anything less than 4th? After the window we had this summer, the feeling was that we would be challenging for 1st with this squad. I think we all knew that there would be a few weeks needed to gel, but I don't think the expectation would have been anything less than a guaranteed CL spot.
There were people saying that AVB should be given at least a year before we could judge him, due to the amount of new players, and some people said they would be happy with a cup and 5th or 6th..
Of course we would have failed under TS.
But I dont expect us to achieve 4th. I did under AVB.
Can you not see the difference?
And yes, the argument hangs on one word. The word Expectation....without the word, this debate makes no sense....I dont see how you can use a word, and dismiss it like its irrelevent?
posted this before (tried to) when the site went a bit tits up...
I think generally what some of us are saying is quite similar - no one has any expectations that the manager should change between now and June.
But, we also maybe don't think that Tim would be the guy to play the football that attracts the sponsors, or the players, and he probably isn't the man to take the club to the next level. He could be, but some people express an opinion that he probably isn't, and as of yet not one person has offered up any evidence that he would be, or could be, better than someone like LvG. People have only defended him using the results, which so far:
Tim's Record since 18th Dec (west ham) - LWDWWLWWLDW
Half of these were against bottom-half teams (West Brom, Stoke, Palace, Swansea, Hull)... 3 wins, 2 draws
Two of these were against top four sides (Man City, Hull) ... lost both
Two were against Euro challengers (Utd, Everton, Southampton) ... won all three.
A more detailed breakdown would be (this season only):
TS - ALL COMPS LWDWWLWWLDW - 11G, W6, D2, L3
Win % - 54.54, Loss % - 27.27
AVB - ALL COMPS WWLWWWDLWWDDLLDWWL - 18G, W9, D4, L5
Win % - 50, Loss % 27.78
TS - LEAGUE ONLY WDWWWWLDW - 9G, W6, D2, L1
Win % - 66.67, Loss % - 11.11 - 2.22 points per game
AVB- LEAGUE ONLY WWLWWDLWWDLLDWWL - 16G - W8, D3, L5
Win % - 50, Loss % 31.25 - 1.6875 points per game
OTHER LEAGUE ONLY STATS
AVB - Record against bottom 10 - WWWWWLWWW
(Palace, Swansea, Norwich, Cardiff, Villa, W'Ham, Hull, Fulham, Sunderland)
88.89% Win Rate - 2.667 points per game
TIM - Record against bottom 10 so far - DWWWD
(West Brom, Stoke, Palace, Swansea, Hull)
60% Win Rate - 2.2 points per game
AVB Record against "Top 4" - LDLL
(Woolwich, Chelsea, City, Pool) 0% Win
No wins, 1 point from 12 possible - 13 conceded, 1 scored - 3.25 goals per game conc. 0.25 goals per game scored
TS Record against "Top 4" so far - LL
(Woolwich, City) 0% Win
No wins, no points from 6 possible - 7 conceded, 1 scored - 3.5 goals per game conc. 0.5 goals per game scored
AVB Record against 'others' (9th to 5th) - DLD (everton, Newcastle, Man Utd)
TS Record against 'others' (9th to 5th) - WWW (So'ton, Man Utd, Everton)
**********************************************
I think we'll find March an interesting month as I believe (from memory) we play Liverpool, Woolwich and Chelsea, so more to compare against.
My concern, in general, is that there's not a massive difference between shit AVB (perceptively) and OMGMESSIAHWTF Sherwood - the only mistake I can see now, on paper, is AVB not playing Ade.
I don't see the ambition, statisically so far. By comparing the type of game I've tried to show a fair balance as much as it's possible to show, but as far as Sherwood goes, what is the key factor that suggests that he is a good manager for now, or in the future?
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I was referring to specific games - such as last night's for example - and our performance, tactics, subs, formation, etc. - all of which are up for discussion and debate while he assumes all responsibility at the time.
Unfortunately what fans think it largely irrelevant as Levy clearly wants top four so that surely is the test of whether or not Sherweasel achieves success?
Timmy deserves until the end of the season at least before making a final judgment, but I think if we pass up the chance to get someone like LvG in the summer we'd be mugs, top four with Sherwood or not. So it's probably worth adjusting to the notion that, short of winning the league, Timothy could get chucked aside whatever he does.
Agree, particularly about the difference largely being Adebayor. I made this point in the past couple of days. For me that's not good enough. I stick my view that it was right that AVB had to go, but installing someone with lack of experience who isn't achieving a great deal more is baffling to me. Makes me wonder what the point of binning AVB was. What's more I think this is an entirely reasonable discussion to have rather that trying to support a manager "just because".
Louis van Gaal can suck an egg