Spurs under 23’s versus Swansea City: (match preview) I get the feeling that Skipp will be playing a certain game instead of this one!!
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Good news is Skipp made his debut - shame it wasn't for longer.
Other than N'Koudou getting in the shop window shame that say Eypma didn't get minutes.
What’s the craic with the goalie Charlie Freeman?
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
So disappointed with last night.
Youth players get no minutes in any other competition, so it was all hanging on last night, and we see KWP start (he's not far off 22, is he even a youth player anymore?!) and Skipp get less than 10 minutes. And of all our academy prospects, Marsh is on the bench.
Meanwhile, Woolwich give an 18-year old his fourth game of the season, and West Ham give a 20-year old his fifth.
Youth players get no minutes in any other competition, so it was all hanging on last night, and we see KWP start (he's not far off 22, is he even a youth player anymore?!) and Skipp get less than 10 minutes. And of all our academy prospects, Marsh is on the bench.
Meanwhile, Woolwich give an 18-year old his fourth game of the season, and West Ham give a 20-year old his fifth.
KWP is the only one I'm disappointed for in our academy as he could have got alot more minutes than he has. But every club thinks their youth team is good and producing top level talent. Bias clouds judgement, of course.
Edwards' attitude clearly isn't right if he's failing to get minutes at a Championship club. Hopefully the move to Holland does him a world of good.
Onomah was garbage whenever he played for us (regardless of his position) and can barely nail down a starting place in his 'preferred' position at Championship clubs.
Carter-Vickers is another who is no where near good enough for us. Another who was physically better and bigger than most at a youth level which helps. But when it comes to men's football? Simply no where near the level required at Spurs. I mean Foyth, who was cheap by modern day transfer standards, is literally 10x the player.
If we are lucky, we should make a good amount of money on these players though.
Now Skipp. Now we're talking. Glad he got minutes yesterday. Was nice to see Marsh on the bench, but there's another one who'll be playing lower league football in a year or twos time.
You can't get to Spurs' first team on talent alone. It's not a surprise that Kane and Winks are the ones who have broke through. Two hard working guys willing to improve, 100% committed to what their coach wants and taking their opportunity (Same could be said of Mason at the time too)
I think KWP is just unlucky he has two experienced international footballers ahead of him. In both positions really. As I have no doubt he has the same mindset as Kane and Winks. Poch is just preaching loyalty to Trippier and probably doesn't want to cut his losses with Aurier as their is a player there.
Don't watch too much of our academy to know the next big things coming through below Skipp but they are young. Let them flourish. Let them learn. They are kids and they have about 5 years before they're likely to even to be considered for starting places in this team. If they don't want to wait and want everything now now now, then they'll likely be off. Not everyone can be a Jaden Sancho and it's very likely no one in our academy is on that level.
Llorente, NKoudou, Wanyama, Alderweireld, Vorm, Dembele will all be gone in the summer. So hopefully that is where the likes of Skipp, Foyth and maybe another youngster can get there squad place. Hopefully a motivated Edwards, though it's probably likely he'll want out as soon as he's back.
Edwards' attitude clearly isn't right if he's failing to get minutes at a Championship club. Hopefully the move to Holland does him a world of good.
Onomah was garbage whenever he played for us (regardless of his position) and can barely nail down a starting place in his 'preferred' position at Championship clubs.
Carter-Vickers is another who is no where near good enough for us. Another who was physically better and bigger than most at a youth level which helps. But when it comes to men's football? Simply no where near the level required at Spurs. I mean Foyth, who was cheap by modern day transfer standards, is literally 10x the player.
If we are lucky, we should make a good amount of money on these players though.
Now Skipp. Now we're talking. Glad he got minutes yesterday. Was nice to see Marsh on the bench, but there's another one who'll be playing lower league football in a year or twos time.
You can't get to Spurs' first team on talent alone. It's not a surprise that Kane and Winks are the ones who have broke through. Two hard working guys willing to improve, 100% committed to what their coach wants and taking their opportunity (Same could be said of Mason at the time too)
I think KWP is just unlucky he has two experienced international footballers ahead of him. In both positions really. As I have no doubt he has the same mindset as Kane and Winks. Poch is just preaching loyalty to Trippier and probably doesn't want to cut his losses with Aurier as their is a player there.
Don't watch too much of our academy to know the next big things coming through below Skipp but they are young. Let them flourish. Let them learn. They are kids and they have about 5 years before they're likely to even to be considered for starting places in this team. If they don't want to wait and want everything now now now, then they'll likely be off. Not everyone can be a Jaden Sancho and it's very likely no one in our academy is on that level.
Llorente, NKoudou, Wanyama, Alderweireld, Vorm, Dembele will all be gone in the summer. So hopefully that is where the likes of Skipp, Foyth and maybe another youngster can get there squad place. Hopefully a motivated Edwards, though it's probably likely he'll want out as soon as he's back.
Out of the 15 players in each year it is a miracle if 2 make it at the top level. It doesn't matter how good our academy is, it's not going to produce 8\11 players in our lineup just like that
I agree completely.
Look at the previous era of players. Pritchard? Obika? Carroll? Bentaleb? Fredericks? Hall? Archer? Veljkovic?
Not a single one of those is good enough for us. Perhaps Bentaleb and at a stretch Veljkovic (who looks pretty average for Bremen) could make it in our squad, at a stretch. But we've made some really really good money on those prospects. Only 4 of those are playing top level football. Two over in Germany and two for struggling Huddersfield and a horrid West Ham team.
And it was the same with the previous era involving Townsend, Smith, Caulker, Livermore, Mason etc. Fucking hell, we creamed ourselves over some of these (I know I did over Caulker and Mason) and it's amazing that four of those five have an England cap but again, none are good enough for us. Very good profit again made though.
And I'm afraid it'll be the same again in 5 years when we look back at a youth team that involved Amos, Sterling, Edwards, Georgiou, Harrison, Onomah, Oakley-Booth, Roles etc and we'll likely see that almost none, maybe one or two, will be playing top level football.
Bit of a strawman there Chris!! Harry Winks 22yrs played his 44th last night.
I get the sentiment though but starting with more in that game against a "strong" or "experienced" West Ham side (PL Team), away from home in their Cup Final would have been a massive risk. It's wasn't Blackpool at home!!
Especially given the narrative of "not taking cups seriously" that surrounds only Poch because he has the balls to state what he sees are the clubs priorities are, whilst other managers who also share the same priorities hide behind a lie of public BS hyperbole. Had we lost last night he would have been crucified, we all know this. Worth noting that West Ham lost the game last night, but at least they got the thumbs up for playing a lad who got his 5th start! Yes, I'm being facetious and I'm sorry for that but there is a massive rock and a massive hard place that Poch has to navigate and this season those two are bigger than they have ever been what with the general feeling that prevails around the club just now.
As I said I get the sentiment and would support your claim too especially seeing GKN take to the field instead of someone from the academy, same could be said of Sissoko's inclusion too but with Sissoko that was to keep the physicality in the side, he played him to win the game. I'm an ex-academy player and trust me nothing is more pleasing watching one of our own take to the field and watch them play well. But the stakes at the club right now are higher than they have ever been and I'm not talking about opportunity, I'm talking about the feeling around the club, the negativity that is festering and boiling just below the surface.
Right now all it takes is just one small thing to happen or get reported and a volcano of negativity spews from our fanbase, with an expectant media fanning the flames of discontent only too readily too. Last night was not just a win it was a win that has made many fans happy at beating West Ham, those same fans who would have lost their shit had we lost to West Ham (of all clubs).
Let's not forget that both Oakley-Boothe & Luke Amos would have almost certainly have featured last night had they not been injured.
I agree with the sentiment but there is so much more at stake right now, big stakes that can affect the Snr Teams performance whilst we wait to get back home.
Rather than look at it on one game alone,
WindyCOYS
point I think is that over 4 years Poch has actually only brought through one player from the Academy - Harry Winks.If you look at the squad Poch inherited it included the likes of Townsend, Carroll, Bentaleb, Mason, Veljkovic and a few others who had come through the Academy and given minutes in games - which in turn allowed them to be sold on for lots of money (so Poch benefited from past academy players evelopment but has not replaced it). I think the aggregate sum of money from sales of Academy players was circa £100m so made a substantial contribution to the purchase of other players. So giving academy players first team minutes actually translates into the ability to buy overseas trained players if the academy product is deemed not good enough after first team minutes.
What Poch needs to find is that 'holy grail' of first team appearances and/or experience on loans which allows an average of probably two new players a year to get into the first team 'floating u21 squad' which might well number 6 players or so at any one time. Some of those players might only get one or two appearances before being discarded and allowed to leave but others will stay and prosper getting perhaps 6 appearances (probably off the bench) in their first season and progressing from there.
The reason why its in Spurs favour (and in the manager's favour if its done regularly such that the manager inherits a few youth players with experience) is very simple :
- A squad can only have 17 overseas trained players (we currently have 20 per UEFA definitions so 3 cannot be registered and play - including currently Juan Foyth ).
- A squad can have up to 8 players trained by clubs registered with the FA provided that at least 4 of these are Club trained. (we currently have Dele and Trippier as non club trained players and Kane, Winks and Rose as Club trained - so we are underweight in these players already).
There is the possibility of both Rose and Trippier leaving within the next 2 years (maybe even in the summer) leaving us more short of players. Looking for good FA trained players to buy, it become very obvious there is not much choice, Grealish looked to be by far the best possibility in terms of availability and quality whilst the likes of Lewis Cook probably not available as the likes of Bournemouth have a similar TV revenue stream and no need to sell.
So unless we have more Club trained players coming through the system, Spurs squad will be small - reliant upon the 17 overseas trained players we have plus the couple of home grown players we have, which will not number enough to properly compete.
Giving academy graduates first team minutes should be seen like any investment - you get the majority of the benefit in the future
Also worth noting that Academy graduates are often as good or better than the likes of N'Koudou and the least good of the first team squad, and no more risky than playing many of the first team squad. If the aim of playing N'Koudou was to give him a market value, I could have some understanding and sympathy with that view, but otherwise it was wasted minutes that would have been of more value to Spurs given to an academy graduate who might get into the first team or a value to be sold on.
So a steady stream of academy graduates into the first team is a matter of surviving and prospering - not to do so is to return to being a mid table team.
Going back to last night, I was pleased to see that Jamie Bowden (CM) was included in the travelling squad (he impressed in the last US pre-season) - and I'd like to think he might be on the bench again as well as being involved in next summer's pre-season, as it looks like he could be a very good 'Carrick' like CM with perhaps better goalscoring and assist .making potential
I agree with everything you've said. I posted solely based within the context of the game last night.Rather than look at it on one game alone,
If you look at the squad Poch inherited it included the likes of Townsend, Carroll, Bentaleb, Mason, Veljkovic and a few others who had come through the Academy and given minutes in games - which in turn allowed them to be sold on for lots of money (so Poch benefited from past academy players evelopment but has not replaced it). I think the aggregate sum of money from sales of Academy players was circa £100m so made a substantial contribution to the purchase of other players. So giving academy players first team minutes actually translates into the ability to buy overseas trained players if the academy product is deemed not good enough after first team minutes.
What Poch needs to find is that 'holy grail' of first team appearances and/or experience on loans which allows an average of probably two new players a year to get into the first team 'floating u21 squad' which might well number 6 players or so at any one time. Some of those players might only get one or two appearances before being discarded and allowed to leave but others will stay and prosper getting perhaps 6 appearances (probably off the bench) in their first season and progressing from there.
The reason why its in Spurs favour (and in the manager's favour if its done regularly such that the manager inherits a few youth players with experience) is very simple :
- A squad can only have 17 overseas trained players (we currently have 20 per UEFA definitions so 3 cannot be registered and play - including currently Juan Foyth ).
- A squad can have up to 8 players trained by clubs registered with the FA provided that at least 4 of these are Club trained. (we currently have Dele and Trippier as non club trained players and Kane, Winks and Rose as Club trained - so we are underweight in these players already).
There is the possibility of both Rose and Trippier leaving within the next 2 years (maybe even in the summer) leaving us more short of players. Looking for good FA trained players to buy, it become very obvious there is not much choice, Grealish looked to be by far the best possibility in terms of availability and quality whilst the likes of Lewis Cook probably not available as the likes of Bournemouth have a similar TV revenue stream and no need to sell.
So unless we have more Club trained players coming through the system, Spurs squad will be small - reliant upon the 17 overseas trained players we have plus the couple of home grown players we have, which will not number enough to properly compete.
Giving academy graduates first team minutes should be seen like any investment - you get the majority of the benefit in the future
Also worth noting that Academy graduates are often as good or better than the likes of N'Koudou and the least good of the first team squad, and no more risky than playing many of the first team squad. If the aim of playing N'Koudou was to give him a market value, I could have some understanding and sympathy with that view, but otherwise it was wasted minutes that would have been of more value to Spurs given to an academy graduate who might get into the first team or a value to be sold on.
So a steady stream of academy graduates into the first team is a matter of surviving and prospering - not to do so is to return to being a mid table team.
Going back to last night, I was pleased to see that Jamie Bowden (CM) was included in the travelling squad (he impressed in the last US pre-season) - and I'd like to think he might be on the bench again as well as being involved in next summer's pre-season, as it looks like he could be a very good 'Carrick' like CM with perhaps better goalscoring and assist .making potential
I 100% agree with the GKN's & Sissoko type signings have prevented academy players being introduced into the first team. Onomah would have played instead of Sissoko, whether he would have taken this opportunity or not we don't know, but I feel at the worse case he would have played no worse than Sissoko (I'm a personal fan of him and think played in a more favourable position he would have been fine) but regardless of 2nd guessing how he would have played or not he would have at least been given the opportunity.
These are the academy players that Poch has handed there debuts to:
Luke Amos, Cameron Carter-Vickers, Marcus Edwards, Anthony Georgiou, Shayon Harrison, Tashan Oakley-Boothe, Josh Onomah, Oliver Skipp, Kazaiah Sterling, Kyle Walker-Peters, Anton Walkes, Harry Winks.
From that list and on CURRENT FORM I'd say only Winks & Skipp look good enough to compete for a place in the first team. I'd add Amos (although prior to his injury I personally didn't think he was good enough), Oakley-Boothe, KWP to that potential list there will be others who some of you will add or take away but I don't think this crop is at the required level for Tottenham first team. The new group bellow, however, I really, really like and think there will be a hatful of players that will push for a spot and if they don't make the mark they are good enough to be sold and make money for the club they way Carroll and co did.
A guess of mine is that we will keep hold of players that will make it as pros with brexit only a few months away the impact of this could be serious and push up the values of accademy products if the UK, we just don't know yet but you can bet it's a contingency we have to plan for.
But yes, none of that changes the words that you put forward and I agree with. As I said my comments were solely within the context of that particular game and the immediate "feeling" of doom and negativity that is being felt at the club.
Thanks A worthwhile addition to the conversation, although with the list you have many of them only had one appearance !. And I did say Poch had only brought through one player- Winks as he is the only player in the 'propper' first team squad that Poch has brought through - with Walker-Peters hopefully being the next although to date he's only had maybe 10 first team appearances so on the fringes of the first team,
One point I'd like to add though is that the secret to bringing through youth is that it needs to be done constantly - you can't dip in and out of it.
And that probably means Poch needs to include maybe one player with less than say 6 appearances on the bench for at least the majority of matches - that way he can always bring the youngster on if Spurs are well in control with 10 minutes or so to go. And that in turn means Poch is more likely to play a few youngsters to see those who may make it.
Of course there will be some raising the counter argument that 'more established first team members' should be on the bench - to which my answer is '*** em' !. There are 7 sub places (up from 5 a change strongly supported by Levy saying it gives more opportunity to young players to be on the bench) of which only 3 can be brought off the bench - yet in a full squad there are 25 players so if one player cannot impress enough to be included in a reduced squad of 17....I have no sympathy !
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100% the bench should always include an academy product but let's be honest given how we've played this season I can't think of a single game where anyone would have made it onto the pitch.
No doubt this same debate will be spoken of again for the Woolwich game. Just look at the comments doing the rounds already from fans "play the strongest team" all within hours of the draw this is already the expectation being put on him from the fan base and the media have yet to pipe up on the "this is Spurs best chance of a Cup", "respect the Cup" blah, blah, blah. Plus we will still be not back at The Lane, the frustration and unrest will not have gone away.
He was really unfortunate with injuries last season and only played once for the U18's. He had a good pre-season during the summer but the 19 year old hasn't played for our youth team in a competitive game this season. I am a big fan of him and hope to see him play soon.
Some great posts in here.
I have to say I don't think dropping to the Europa League after Christmas will be the end of the world.
1) It's a realistic chance of silverware
2) It's a great competition to bed in youngsters. The last time we brought through academy players was because of this competition and while we aspire to be in the Champions League, compete with the best and try be the best, in the current moment we are far off. We couldn't get solutions in through the market because of financial permutations, so now is the time to look internally for solutions. Players like Walker-Peters, Skipp, Oakley-Boothe, Roles have a greater chance in that competition given the Thursday-Sunday implications.
Imagine we win the competition and in doing so a couple of players breakout and earn their stripes. It might reduce our need to spend if Walker-Peters as an example does really well which in turn makes him good enough to be a actual first team player playing in all competitions, rather than someone who trains and gets the odd cup game every few months.
I have to say I don't think dropping to the Europa League after Christmas will be the end of the world.
1) It's a realistic chance of silverware
2) It's a great competition to bed in youngsters. The last time we brought through academy players was because of this competition and while we aspire to be in the Champions League, compete with the best and try be the best, in the current moment we are far off. We couldn't get solutions in through the market because of financial permutations, so now is the time to look internally for solutions. Players like Walker-Peters, Skipp, Oakley-Boothe, Roles have a greater chance in that competition given the Thursday-Sunday implications.
Imagine we win the competition and in doing so a couple of players breakout and earn their stripes. It might reduce our need to spend if Walker-Peters as an example does really well which in turn makes him good enough to be a actual first team player playing in all competitions, rather than someone who trains and gets the odd cup game every few months.
Yup understand that - but had Spurs had a constant 'drip feed' of players either out on loan or getting first team minutes over the last 3 or 4 years we would have had at least one academy product on the bench with enough experience to come on and spell tired players (nb. I still believe the squad are recovering from 10 of our players being in the WC final or 3rd/4th place meaning that players came back without a pre-season and not really fit. In turn the fatigued players are more susceptible to muscle injuries - hence having 6 players out injured, putting more pressure on the remaining players. Having a limited squad of tired 'fit' players means Poch has altered tactics to play with less intensity....meaning Spurs are winning narrowly based upon the quality of out players prevailing over the opposition).
Imagine in another universe where KWP has played more than 10 appearances in the 3 years since his debut, and maybe 3 or 4 other youngsters who have also played a few games in the last 3 seasons. In which case some of these youngsters would have been more appropriate for Poch to put on to see out matches...resting some of the first team, or maybe a forward able to come on with fresh legs and stretch the opposition.
As I said playing the youth is not something to be dine on a 'drip feed' basis and we are currently reaping the results of not bringing youngsters through over the last couple of seasons.
And if Poch wanted to supplement players coming through the Academy to pick up 'bargains' from lower leagues such as a pre Bouremouth Lewis Cook or David Brooks (post Dele we've not done that) who would help our 'home grown numbers' but still need development.
He also brought through Mason.
Who from our academy is good enough though? Other than KWP, the only other players I'd like to see get some mins are Skipp, who came on and Roles, who for some reason doesn't even get regular starts for the U23s. Other than the other players I'd like to see play are all out on loan (Onomah, Shashoua and Edwards).
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
Some fascinating debate on here yesterday, hats off to all for detailed posts and quality of discussion.
Totti
, just to pick up on a few of your points:
I think it's very easy to blame the player in Edwards' case and it has clearly spiralled out of control but from the snippets I've heard I would there was a point where it could have gone either way and the club perhaps made decisions which in hindsight weren't ideal. Also, imagine it from Edwards' POV: debut at 17, compared to Messi, suddenly sidelined never to be involved again, including not taken on tours when others were, etc.
Onomah was not garbage. He played really well against Monaco in CM against Bakayoko and co and then mainly got stuck out on the left wing or as a second striker.
I tend to agree that Carter-Vickers isn't up to the level, but he will still command a significant fee when we eventually sell him so has to be seen as a success.
Skipp's great - Marsh, like you say, won't be up to the mark, so why reward him over others? Maghoma/Bowden/Shashoua and even Roles have all performed better this year. If it's literally just a bench place and no minutes, then why include Marsh? Odd to me.
Re: hard work, your suggestion is that only Winks and Kane put in 100% effort and no other talented academy players did? I think that's a reach personally.
And why has he got two experienced players ahead of him? Because that's how Pochettino has chosen to form his squad. We spent £24m on Aurier - was it needed? Has he delivered?
5 years? So you're thinking 23? I think that's a real waste of time and talent and if they have to wait until 23 to get chances, they'll all wind down their contracts and leave on tribunals.
'Not everyone can be a Sancho' - no, he's elite, but Edwards was/is not that far off that level and still has the world at his feet IMO. The difference between them was opportunity at the right time. Had Edwards left two years ago and not had two years of stagnation, who knows what he'd be by now.
I don't think that's realistic, sadly, based on the past three years. Chances are we'll buy more players to fill those squad places, some of whom will be no better than Walker-Peters, Onomah, Edwards, Skipp, etc.
Totti
, just to pick up on a few of your points:I think it's very easy to blame the player in Edwards' case and it has clearly spiralled out of control but from the snippets I've heard I would there was a point where it could have gone either way and the club perhaps made decisions which in hindsight weren't ideal. Also, imagine it from Edwards' POV: debut at 17, compared to Messi, suddenly sidelined never to be involved again, including not taken on tours when others were, etc.
Onomah was not garbage. He played really well against Monaco in CM against Bakayoko and co and then mainly got stuck out on the left wing or as a second striker.
I tend to agree that Carter-Vickers isn't up to the level, but he will still command a significant fee when we eventually sell him so has to be seen as a success.
Skipp's great - Marsh, like you say, won't be up to the mark, so why reward him over others? Maghoma/Bowden/Shashoua and even Roles have all performed better this year. If it's literally just a bench place and no minutes, then why include Marsh? Odd to me.
Re: hard work, your suggestion is that only Winks and Kane put in 100% effort and no other talented academy players did? I think that's a reach personally.
And why has he got two experienced players ahead of him? Because that's how Pochettino has chosen to form his squad. We spent £24m on Aurier - was it needed? Has he delivered?
5 years? So you're thinking 23? I think that's a real waste of time and talent and if they have to wait until 23 to get chances, they'll all wind down their contracts and leave on tribunals.
'Not everyone can be a Sancho' - no, he's elite, but Edwards was/is not that far off that level and still has the world at his feet IMO. The difference between them was opportunity at the right time. Had Edwards left two years ago and not had two years of stagnation, who knows what he'd be by now.
I don't think that's realistic, sadly, based on the past three years. Chances are we'll buy more players to fill those squad places, some of whom will be no better than Walker-Peters, Onomah, Edwards, Skipp, etc.
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
Good enough for what? For regular PL football? None. For a cameo? Loads are!
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