Spurs Youth 2018/19

[Spursidol]

I think that's a very generalised and sweeping statement that is very difficult to back-up. You have to understand these kids' backgrounds, motivations and family situations before making judgements like this.

In my opinion the solution is fairly simple: if Poch isn't going to use untested players he needs to send them out on loan so that they are no longer untested. We had some fantastic loan offers from exciting clubs over the summer for some of our youngsters and he personally vetoed them.

'We had some fantastic loan offers from exciting clubs over the summer for some of our youngsters and he personally vetoed them'

That's sad in many ways. I assume he didn't have confidence in the coaching at s9ome of the clubs wanting loanees, but Spurs should be identifying which clubs they do have confidence in the coaching during the season and talking to those clubs so appropriate loan opportunities do come about.

But for those not going on loan, we need to ensure that the coaching from 18 - 21 at Spurs is good plus at that age probably some sort of mentoring so that players staying at Spurs do progress. And if PL2 is not a good league to arrange friendlies with suitable clubs etc

I'm not sure if I have had that much confidence in the coaching for that key 18-21 age group for a few years. Your thoughts WindyCOYS

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Some fascinating debate on here yesterday, hats off to all for detailed posts and quality of discussion.

Totti , just to pick up on a few of your points:


I think it's very easy to blame the player in Edwards' case and it has clearly spiralled out of control but from the snippets I've heard I would there was a point where it could have gone either way and the club perhaps made decisions which in hindsight weren't ideal. Also, imagine it from Edwards' POV: debut at 17, compared to Messi, suddenly sidelined never to be involved again, including not taken on tours when others were, etc.

Onomah was not garbage. He played really well against Monaco in CM against Bakayoko and co and then mainly got stuck out on the left wing or as a second striker.

I tend to agree that Carter-Vickers isn't up to the level, but he will still command a significant fee when we eventually sell him so has to be seen as a success.



Skipp's great - Marsh, like you say, won't be up to the mark, so why reward him over others? Maghoma/Bowden/Shashoua and even Roles have all performed better this year. If it's literally just a bench place and no minutes, then why include Marsh? Odd to me.

Re: hard work, your suggestion is that only Winks and Kane put in 100% effort and no other talented academy players did? I think that's a reach personally.



And why has he got two experienced players ahead of him? Because that's how Pochettino has chosen to form his squad. We spent £24m on Aurier - was it needed? Has he delivered?



5 years? So you're thinking 23? I think that's a real waste of time and talent and if they have to wait until 23 to get chances, they'll all wind down their contracts and leave on tribunals.

'Not everyone can be a Sancho' - no, he's elite, but Edwards was/is not that far off that level and still has the world at his feet IMO. The difference between them was opportunity at the right time. Had Edwards left two years ago and not had two years of stagnation, who knows what he'd be by now.



I don't think that's realistic, sadly, based on the past three years. Chances are we'll buy more players to fill those squad places, some of whom will be no better than Walker-Peters, Onomah, Edwards, Skipp, etc.

For me, this is the crux of the debate. We can and will get bogged down in talking about an individuals ability and all the layers of complexities about their personality, opportunity and the best place for them to develop be that on loan, remain at Tottenham etc.....

But buying an average player that doesn't make the matchday squad is utter madness, especially if they block the pathway for an academy product to come through. It doesn't even matter if that academy player isn't good enough, just to get the mins on his CV would boost their value in the market. The opportunity and pathway would be there for those with the desire and motivation who want it enough, a real achievable target for them, whilst we would have saved £10-£30m and a further £2m on a salary on buying in a player.

I'm in no doubt that GKN got his mins against West Ham solely to boost our chances of selling him, what a fucking waste of time for everyone, not just the academy player who wasn't afforded those valuable mins but the effect it might also have on McDermott and his team also.

I feel this must stop, it will not be eradicated completely, as there will always be a Jansen, a Soldado or a Llorente (all had strong arguments to support why we bought them at the time) who don't work out. But GKN, N'jie Sissoko have all blocked academy players coming through.

As I type that however, I'm struggling to think of another player we have brought in the last 3 years who other than these 3, have blocked a graduate. You mentioned Aurier, I get that argument because he hasn't played many mins but personally, I think he's better than Tripps and given his CL and domestic trophy-winning credentials at PSG then I will stand by his acquisition, had we chosen of course to cash in on a Champ level RB for £50m!!!. I guess what I'm now saying is GKN, N'jie and Sissoko isn't that many players to get wrong, is it? (yeah fully prepared for the answer it's "3 too many").

 

[Spursidol]

For me, this is the crux of the debate. We can and will get bogged down in talking about an individuals ability and all the layers of complexities about their personality, opportunity and the best place for them to develop be that on loan, remain at Tottenham etc.....

But buying an average player that doesn't make the matchday squad is utter madness, especially if they block the pathway for an academy product to come through. It doesn't even matter if that academy player isn't good enough, just to get the mins on his CV would boost their value in the market. The opportunity and pathway would be there for those with the desire and motivation who want it enough, a real achievable target for them, whilst we would have saved £10-£30m and a further £2m on a salary on buying in a player.

I'm in no doubt that GKN got his mins against West Ham solely to boost our chances of selling him, what a fucking waste of time for everyone, not just the academy player who wasn't afforded those valuable mins but the effect it might also have on McDermott and his team also.

I feel this must stop, it will not be eradicated completely, as there will always be a Jansen, a Soldado or a Llorente (all had strong arguments to support why we bought them at the time) who don't work out. But GKN, N'jie Sissoko have all blocked academy players coming through.

As I type that however, I'm struggling to think of another player we have brought in the last 3 years who other than these 3, have blocked a graduate. You mentioned Aurier, I get that argument because he hasn't played many mins but personally, I think he's better than Tripps and given his CL and domestic trophy-winning credentials at PSG then I will stand by his acquisition, had we chosen of course to cash in on a Champ level RB for £50m!!!. I guess what I'm now saying is GKN, N'jie and Sissoko isn't that many players to get wrong, is it? (yeah fully prepared for the answer it's "3 too many").

Agree with most of this.

But I don't think its '3 too many' its actually a cumulative effect over years - so would argue that Poch should have either got decent loans for Milis Veljkovic who had had about 3 PL sub appearances when Poch arrived or been retained to develop in the squad (for me the latter was probably the preferable route, provided he was getting some appearances off the bench). However that didn't happen, Veljkovic decided that others (like Wimmer) were being bought despite being average players who would block his path and left for Werder Bremen, Spurs getting circa £500k compensation as Milos was under 24.

Roll forward 3 years and Milos was at the WC with Serbia and is a regular with Werder Bremen - and if we wanted to buy him I'd guess at £30m - £40m would be required, whilst Wimmer ........is not worth that now.

So Veljkovic has proved himself as CB/DM with Serbia and Werder Bremen and would certainly be a decent squad option for Spurs had he stayed - and we could certainly have used him.

Not sure I get the love in for Aurier. On the youtubes at PSG he seemed fast - I've yet to see that at Spurs. He makes a lot of rash challenges which I think cost us 3 pens last season and who can firget his throw ins - generally needs a LOT of coaching to get to a decent standard. I'm sure Poch can get him to a 7/10 decent player - but the amount of coaching required is not less than Poch might have needed to bring through a youngster......so was it £23m or so well spent ?

Agree though on N'Jie and N'Koudou and even Janssen and Llorente as we haven't had a top forward come through since Kane.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Agree with most of this.

But I don't think its '3 too many' its actually a cumulative effect over years - so would argue that Poch should have either got decent loans for Milis Veljkovic who had had about 3 PL sub appearances when Poch arrived or been retained to develop in the squad (for me the latter was probably the preferable route, provided he was getting some appearances off the bench). However that didn't happen, Veljkovic decided that others (like Wimmer) were being bought despite being average players who would block his path and left for Werder Bremen, Spurs getting circa £500k compensation as Milos was under 24.

Roll forward 3 years and Milos was at the WC with Serbia and is a regular with Werder Bremen - and if we wanted to buy him I'd guess at £30m - £40m would be required, whilst Wimmer ........is not worth that now.

So Veljkovic has proved himself as CB/DM with Serbia and Werder Bremen and would certainly be a decent squad option for Spurs had he stayed - and we could certainly have used him.

Not sure I get the love in for Aurier. On the youtubes at PSG he seemed fast - I've yet to see that at Spurs. He makes a lot of rash challenges which I think cost us 3 pens last season and who can firget his throw ins - generally needs a LOT of coaching to get to a decent standard. I'm sure Poch can get him to a 7/10 decent player - but the amount of coaching required is not less than Poch might have needed to bring through a youngster......so was it £23m or so well spent ?

Agree though on N'Jie and N'Koudou and even Janssen and Llorente as we haven't had a top forward come through since Kane.

I had forgotten about Veljlovic, I thought he was mustard and never understood letting him go. If it was the arrival of Wimmer that prompted his departure, I bet he's regretting his hastiness in leaving?? I'm not in any way blaming him (I like a player in a hurry to get mins) just offering a different point of view, had he stayed and backed himself against an average Wimmer, he might be playing for Spurs at the top of the PL instead of Werder Bremen??? (We also banked £20m for Wimmer, which has to be one of the best pieces of business Levy has ever pulled off, not to mention the impact that Wimmer had on Son coming to Spurs or keeping him after what he thought was a difficult first year).

But yeah Milos, was a baller and one would have thought an ideal Poch player who had the versatility to excel in two positions (CB/DM), ironically a position which is causing us a headache right now.

With Auier I wouldn't call it love, it's driven more by my disdain for Tripps, who I believe is a large part of our balance and shape right now, why we aren't Spurs of old with fucking good fullbacks and why we are now conceding more shots on our goal than at any time under Poch (excluding his first 6months or so). Agree about Aurier not being quick, this was an expectation that I too haven't witnessed, that said he is a better athlete (when he attacks he can also get back and contribute defensively be that back at the wing or if a CB or DM has been pulled out to cover he does cover that player too, Tripps is basically out of the game). He no longer dives in and remains on his feet, something that wasn't a trait of his game at PSG and something that I believe was him overcompensating for in an aggressive team playing in an aggressive legaue. So I'd bin off Tripps within a heartbeat and have KWP and Aurier as our RB options. BUT, this is me and not the reality, the reality is we have three 3 RB's which I simply do not get and it's resulted in one of the academy's best prospects not get many mins.

 

[Wallander]

Why hasn't GKN ever played with the U23s?

How do we know there isn't something about him that could signal a player that none of us have seen since we don't ever see him in action?

 

[bus-conductor]

I had forgotten about Veljlovic, I thought he was mustard and never understood letting him go. If it was the arrival of Wimmer that prompted his departure, I bet he's regretting his hastiness in leaving?? I'm not in any way blaming him (I like a player in a hurry to get mins) just offering a different point of view, had he stayed and backed himself against an average Wimmer, he might be playing for Spurs at the top of the PL instead of Werder Bremen??? (We also banked £20m for Wimmer, which has to be one of the best pieces of business Levy has ever pulled off, not to mention the impact that Wimmer had on Son coming to Spurs or keeping him after what he thought was a difficult first year).

But yeah Milos, was a baller and one would have thought an ideal Poch player who had the versatility to excel in two positions (CB/DM), ironically a position which is causing us a headache right now.

With Auier I wouldn't call it love, it's driven more by my disdain for Tripps, who I believe is a large part of our balance and shape right now, why we aren't Spurs of old with fucking good fullbacks and why we are now conceding more shots on our goal than at any time under Poch (excluding his first 6months or so). Agree about Aurier not being quick, this was an expectation that I too haven't witnessed, that said he is a better athlete (when he attacks he can also get back and contribute defensively be that back at the wing or if a CB or DM has been pulled out to cover he does cover that player too, Tripps is basically out of the game). He no longer dives in and remains on his feet, something that wasn't a trait of his game at PSG and something that I believe was him overcompensating for in an aggressive team playing in an aggressive legaue. So I'd bin off Tripps within a heartbeat and have KWP and Aurier as our RB options. BUT, this is me and not the reality, the reality is we have three 3 RB's which I simply do not get and it's resulted in one of the academy's best prospects not get many mins.

Leaving your/our disagreement about the viability of Trippier and Aurier aside, the simple truth is, Trippier and KWP were already here, Aurier required 25m fee and another 4m per year (guess) for 4/5 year commitment to obtain. This is exactly what happened with Veljkovic - the same type of decision process - Same with Pritchard. Whatever you think of Trippier, the body of Aurier's work certainly did not suggest "upgrade" as an overall package (believe me Ive seen a big chunk of that body of work and said the same on SC when we signed him - I always quite liked Aurier, I used to think he had good qualities and potential but he just never grew out of the stupid mistakes he made - up to the point we signed him anyway - so at best we were just getting another flawed player that needed a lot of polishing - so why not polish what we already had - two good HG RB's with different qualities)

If we are talking personal choices, then I'm throwing in Moura too. In todays market, his price/wage wasn't outrageous, and he's got pace and some dribbly ability, but he's still very fucking average in terms of intelligence and output. Would much, much rather have seen Edwards or Shashoua or even Bennetts - who I didn't rate super highly - but if all we want is someone to tear around, work hard off the ball, and be a bit erratic with the odd moment of "good" - which effectively what we've got with Moura, then we have kids that could have taken turns to fill that remit - or in Roles, Shashoua's and Edwards case do something slightly different, but more intelligent even.

I just think there's this mind set that pervades clubs, and up until 5-10 years ago or so it was probably justified, that English academy kids were just an inferior product, had been poorly coached, technically and tactically, and therefore represented bigger risk than a purchased option, even a purchased kid from abroad, who'd invariably been better coached and already had at least 50 games. But our academy kids now are so much better, technically and tactically, that that risk is now often more comparable, sometimes less than bringing in a kid with 15 appearances in Ligue1, or even more experienced, but flawed players that have to not only still be polished, taught to play "Poch's" way, behave Poch's way, but have to learn languages, settle in new culture's and countries, and acclimatise emotionally - families etc, where academy kids have all that nailed already. They know exactly how they are to play, to train, to behave, are settled, can communicate etc.

 

[Spursidol]

Why hasn't GKN ever played with the U23s?

How do we know there isn't something about him that could signal a player that none of us have seen since we don't ever see him in action?

GKN is already 23 and probably too old, but more importantly had already played more than 60 games in France before he came to Spurs so is (or should be) well beyond playing in u23's (where players age is often averaging 19). If he's not impressing in training versus other players he's just a poorly scouted purchase

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Leaving your/our disagreement about the viability of Trippier and Aurier aside, the simple truth is, Trippier and KWP were already here, Aurier required 25m fee and another 4m per year (guess) for 4/5 year commitment to obtain. This is exactly what happened with Veljkovic - the same type of decision process - Same with Pritchard. Whatever you think of Trippier, the body of Aurier's work certainly did not suggest "upgrade" as an overall package (believe me Ive seen a big chunk of that body of work and said the same on SC when we signed him - I always quite liked Aurier, I used to think he had good qualities and potential but he just never grew out of the stupid mistakes he made - up to the point we signed him anyway - so at best we were just getting another flawed player that needed a lot of polishing - so why not polish what we already had - two good HG RB's with different qualities)

If we are talking personal choices, then I'm throwing in Moura too. In todays market, his price/wage wasn't outrageous, and he's got pace and some dribbly ability, but he's still very fucking average in terms of intelligence and output. Would much, much rather have seen Edwards or Shashoua or even Bennetts - who I didn't rate super highly - but if all we want is someone to tear around, work hard off the ball, and be a bit erratic with the odd moment of "good" - which effectively what we've got with Moura, then we have kids that could have taken turns to fill that remit - or in Roles, Shashoua's and Edwards case do something slightly different, but more intelligent even.

I just think there's this mind set that pervades clubs, and up until 5-10 years ago or so it was probably justified, that English academy kids were just an inferior product, had been poorly coached, technically and tactically, and therefore represented bigger risk than a purchased option, even a purchased kid from abroad, who'd invariably been better coached and already had at least 50 games. But our academy kids now are so much better, technically and tactically, that that risk is now often more comparable, sometimes less than bringing in a kid with 15 appearances in Ligue1, or even more experienced, but flawed players that have to not only still be polished, taught to play "Poch's" way, behave Poch's way, but have to learn languages, settle in new culture's and countries, and acclimatise emotionally - families etc, where academy kids have all that nailed already. They know exactly how they are to play, to train, to behave, are settled, can communicate etc.

First and foremost one thing that hasn't been discussed yet is we make shit loads of money in player trading (Snr players), we mustn't stop doing this as it is clearly a skill that works for us and despite many negative comments from many in our fanbase we are where we are because of our player trading not in spite of it. Other clubs up and down the league look to us at how to do things. It is NOT perfect, there is huge scope to improve and one area brings us round to stopping buying Sissoko, GKN, N'jie while giving mins to academy players and perhaps spending the combined salaries and initial purchase fees of those players on a de Jong for +£60m for example. Unless of course we do another Wimmer and turn a £4m player into a £20m player!! Is this a specific strategy? Is this why we bought N'jie and GKN? If so then it's hard to dismiss it out of hand.

My thinking around Tripps when we bought Aurier was that we were going to sell him, for me his only redeeming feature is what we paid for him, £4m!! IMO we have missed an opportunity to make an absolute killing (we still could). FWIW I think £25m for Aurier is also sound price in today's market. But agree and question the logic of buying a 3rd Full Back if you aren't going to sell one of them, that put simply doesn't make any sense at all.

Lucas is an interesting one, like Aurier the price we have paid for him is a steal. Whilst I love a player that can dribble and carry the ball, he's not constantly doing this in the right areas. He's not on the same wavelength as his teammates (or vice-versa). I confess I don't know if this is him, others around him off their levels, our change of shape (2 up top/4-3-3), injuries to Erkisen and Dele, whatever, there are a lot of moving parts and a real chicken and egg thing going on. But for me it isn't a massive concern, we are creating chances, our underlying numbers are good and this is when he's been an ever-present in the side. From what I've seen of him he's at a far higher level than Edwards (who I love BTW). I was concerned that Lucas couldn't add to this team without the ball, he's proved me wrong here, to the point where I think that's been one of his strengths in recent games. So, what am I saying here, I think he doesn't fit into the category of blocking an academy player. Time is on our side with him, let's see if it's a system thing, a Kane thing, a Dele thing and Eriksen thing and Son thing. By the end of the season, I think we will get a good idea of identifying and isolating the problem(s). If it is him then we will make decent money on him and who knows a full season of men's football might have pushed Edwards onto an acceptable level where we can integrate him, Shashoua too.

Another thing that has evaporated somewhat is a sense of a concrete strategy. It has been talked about and featured a lot in Poch's early days. There have been many times in press conferences where he has said we are building for the future and that actually we have progressed much faster than had been planned for. If this was the case then what is the plan? Has it changed since he arrived? Has he really done a U-turn on loaning players out to give them the opportunity to improve and come back and improve their chances at playing, or is he unchanged in his belief in only those that he rates he keeps close and with the group in his charge at Hotspur Way? As yet none of those loaned out have come back and integrated back into the squad (early days so a tad unfair at this point) but we need to actually see this play out in practice to see what is actually happening. Right now I don't know what our strategy is.

 

[spurs9]

Mason is an odd one - he'd been on a few loans, and shone on a loan at Swindon (?) and then due to the WC or Euros was one of the few available CM's to take on Poch's first pre-season and looked very good until being injured at end of pre-season. Spurs were short of CM's and when Mason recovered he was drafted in to play alongside Capoue. Then of course some of the senior players Adebator, Kaboul backed up by the likes of Capoue were taking the piss and Mason with Kane called them out in the dressing room, Poch backed the youngsters and the rest is history.

So Mason was brought through due to a set of unusual circumstances, starting with so few CM's being available on pre-season due to injury and a WC ; it wasn't planned. But quite a few players come through due to circumstances like that.

Still doesn't alter my point that Poch inherited a squad with a number of academy players in it (or like Mason on the fringes of it), many of whom were sold off netting circa £100m to invest in players (so that's a success) whilst keeping some like Kane. Roll forward to today and Poch has not kept up the work of gradually getting a few home grown players into the squad over the last 3 years or so, so now we don't have too many in the squad or experienced enough to be on the fringes of it Which is why we currently are on the verge of having a problem with lack of players in the squaqd (as outlined in a previous post)

That's not true though, Bentaleb and Dembele were both fit, Poch chose Mason over them both for that Woolwich game.

 

[spurs9]

Ha! I meant the former, but I'd rather have seen any of the following brought on as a wide left player than GKN:

Bennett
Roles
Markanday
Sterling
Maghoma
And obviously Edwards.

But, like I say, I'd have rather any young player be brought on in any position rather than GKN getting more pointless minutes. I assume he was brought on as a financial reward for being patient or as a shop window opportunity.

Re: showing a certain level, I do have a problem with that given the state of the management of our U23s - some are doing well in spite of this, but it's definitely holding others back IMO.

GKN must have been a shop window opportunity, it's the only thing that makes sense.

I'll agree o rather seeing Roles and Maghoma (maybe) instead of GKN, but for me Bennett and Markanday it would have been too much of a step up physically and could have been had a negative affect mentally on them. I dont think Sterling is the type of player that can play anywhere other than Striker. Edwards is out on loan, so couldn't play.

I agree on the U23 issues, but it has been that way for a while (though gotten worse) so has to be more than just Burnett causing it, but replacing him would be a start.

 

[Spursidol]

That's not true though, Bentaleb and Dembele were both fit, Poch chose Mason over them both for that Woolwich game.

I do wonder if Poch suspected Capoue might become a casualty and no better way to prepare for that by playing Mason with him to test Mason out.....and as you know within weeks Capoue was in disgrace and the CM's became a Mason/Bentaleb combo.

I'd need to check but when Poch arrived Dembele wasn't the player he later became and Poch played him in a RM type position as we were short in that role

 

[spurs9]

I do wonder if Poch suspected Capoue might become a casualty and no better way to prepare for that by playing Mason with him to test Mason out.....and as you know within weeks Capoue was in disgrace and the CM's became a Mason/Bentaleb combo.

I'd need to check but when Poch arrived Dembele wasn't the player he later became and Poch played him in a RM type position as we were short in that role

Dembele was played in CM (mostly off the bench) when Poch first arrived. Once the Bentaleb & Mason partnership started, Dembele played AM (with an occasional appearance at CM) when he got on the pitch. Half way through Pochs 2nd season Dembele went back to CM.

 

[bus-conductor]

You make some very good points, some I concur completely with.

First and foremost one thing that hasn't been discussed yet is we make shit loads of money in player trading (Snr players), we mustn't stop doing this as it is clearly a skill that works for us and despite many negative comments from many in our fanbase we are where we are because of our player trading not in spite of it. Other clubs up and down the league look to us at how to do things. It is NOT perfect, there is huge scope to improve and one area brings us round to stopping buying Sissoko, GKN, N'jie while giving mins to academy players and perhaps spending the combined salaries and initial purchase fees of those players on a de Jong for +£60m for example. Unless of course we do another Wimmer and turn a £4m playing into a £20m player!! Is this a specific strategy? Is this why we bought N'jie and GKN? If so then it's hard to dismiss it out of hand.

I agree, and would say up until recently, from the time Arnesen arrived, transfer trading formed an enormous part of our business model (maybe the most important part - because until recently our profit from other revenue streams wasn't huge), with heavy emphasis placed on procuring players with inherent value, and as much as Ive moaned about various purchases during that time, Ive always maintained that we've still done it better than most up to a couple of years ago. But even within that remit, I think by not making the best use of some academy products, we've not always maximised another great revenue stream - conversion of our own HG product, even the ones that aren't ultimately good enough for our level or PL level.

This ties in with your last paragraph which again makes very salient points:

Another thing that has evaporated somewhat is a sense of a concrete strategy. It has been talked about and featured a lot in Poch's early days. There have been many times in press conferences where he has said we are building for the future and that actually we have progressed much faster than had been planned for. If this was the case then what is the plan? Has it changed since he arrived? Has he really done a U-turn on loaning players out to give them the opportunity to improve and come back and improve their chances at playing, or is he unchanged in his belief in only those that he rates he keeps close and with the group in his charge at Hotspur Way? As yet none of those loaned out have come back and integrated back into the squad (early days so a tad unfair at this point) but we need to actually see this play out in practice to see what is actually happening. Right now I don't know what our strategy is.

This is where I think putting Poch at the top of the pyramid (as you said in your other very good post today in the Poch thread - and Ive touched on in places too) making him the "manager/head of recruitment" and not just head coach has seen that strategy become very blurred and veer more toward the "now" signing. We have no DOF, gone is our "dream team" scouting/analytics dept., and even the committee has been usurped by a more Poch driven policy. Hence we get 30m (and 4.8m pa) on a 27yo Sissoko, 12m on a 32yo Llorente, 25m on a 26yo Moura, 25m on a 24yo Aurier. In todays bananas fees they don't look expensive (apart from Sissoko obviously), but to a club with our resources the fee/wage packages represent big commitment, they were all players who are exposed at a certain level, don't have loads of clear scope, unlike many of the deals we did in previous years for the likes of Dier, Alli, Eriksen, Walker, Rose, Modric, Bale...

And to bring this back to the youth integration issue (and touch on something Spursidol has said above, and Ive said previously that we've also seen our playing strategy become very diluted - partly from circumstances this season outside Poch's control, but part of it started last season, the fading press, the more reliance on "individual" over the collective ethos. And I think this is where the academy can also play a part in the football sense, not just from a value/financial sense - because these kids will run through walls for a chance, they can bring energy and intensity, have young supple minds that will follow tactical instructions. They don't have to be world class, it's not like all our purchased players are - especially if Poch reverts to a more collective ethos based approach.

This is what galvanised Poch's revolution here and I think he's got further from it the longer time's gone on, he's become less "brave", has more fear of failure. The one thing Ferguson never feared was using young players for certain remits, even the functionary ones (the Fletcher's, Evans's, Brown's etc) as well as the decent ones. Because he knew they'd give him 100% every time and do what he asked. And Wenger's best years always seemed to be when he was developing young players not spending big money on buying them. And in doing that even if they don't end up top drawer, you kick the regulars up the arse, and you add to the kids value when you sell them on etc. Win/win.

Lucas is an interesting one, like Aurier the price we have paid for him is a steal. Whilst I love a player that can dribble and carry the ball, he's not constantly doing this in the right areas. He's not on the same wavelength as his teammates (or vice-versa). I confess I don't know if this is him, others around him off their levels, our change of shape (2 up top/4-3-3), injuries to Erkisen and Dele, whatever, there are a lot of moving parts and a real chicken and egg thing going on. But for me it isn't a massive concern, we are creating chances, our underlying numbers are good and this is when he's been an ever-present in the side. From what I've seen of him he's at a far higher level than Edwards (who I love BTW). I was concerned that Lucas couldn't add to this team without the ball, he's proved me wrong here, to the point where I think that's been one of his strengths in recent games. So, what am I saying here, I think he doesn't fit into the category of blocking an academy player. Time is on our side with him, let's see if it's a system thing, a Kane thing, a Dele thing and Eriksen thing and Son thing. By the end of the season, I think we will get a good idea of identifying and isolating the problem(s). If it is him then we will make decent money on him and who knows a full season of men's football might have pushed Edwards onto an acceptable level where we can integrate him, Shashoua too.

It's not us, it's him. He was exactly the same at PSG, where playing for PSG greatly enhanced his "numbers". There has always been a lot of headless chicken wastage with him. He was always most effective in a 433 as a wide forward, and Poch did him no favours (or Kane/us) playing as a striker in his 442 bollocks, but Moura's not the most intelligent and never has been. I got a lot of shit on SC for calling him the Brazilian Lennon. Lots of whiz, not much bang. In this respect, I still see him as blocking pathways, because we've added another - not peanuts cheap - player that Poch is going to feel obliged to play (like Sissoko) meaning one of either Son, Alli or Lamela on the bench, meaning no Edwards, Shashoua, Roles on that bench. That's OK if the player is great, or bags of potential to be great, not so good if he isn't.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

You make some very good points, some I concur completely with.



I agree, and would say up until recently, from the time Arnesen arrived, transfer trading formed an enormous part of our business model (maybe the most important part - because until recently our profit from other revenue streams wasn't huge), with heavy emphasis placed on procuring players with inherent value, and as much as Ive moaned about various purchases during that time, Ive always maintained that we've still done it better than most up to a couple of years ago. But even within that remit, I think by not making the best use of some academy products, we've not always maximised another great revenue stream - conversion of our own HG product, even the ones that aren't ultimately good enough for our level or PL level.

This ties in with your last paragraph which again makes very salient points:



This is where I think putting Poch at the top of the pyramid (as you said in your other very good post today in the Poch thread - and Ive touched on in places too) making him the "manager/head of recruitment" and not just head coach has seen that strategy become very blurred and veer more toward the "now" signing. We have no DOF, gone is our "dream team" scouting/analytics dept., and even the committee has been usurped by a more Poch driven policy. Hence we get 30m (and 4.8m pa) on a 27yo Sissoko, 12m on a 32yo Llorente, 25m on a 26yo Moura, 25m on a 24yo Aurier. In todays bananas fees they don't look expensive (apart from Sissoko obviously), but to a club with our resources the fee/wage packages represent big commitment, they were all players who are exposed at a certain level, don't have loads of clear scope, unlike many of the deals we did in previous years for the likes of Dier, Alli, Eriksen, Walker, Rose, Modric, Bale...

And to bring this back to the youth integration issue (and touch on something Spursidol has said above, and Ive said previously that we've also seen our playing strategy become very diluted - partly from circumstances this season outside Poch's control, but part of it started last season, the fading press, the more reliance on "individual" over the collective ethos. And I think this is where the academy can also play a part in the football sense, not just from a value/financial sense - because these kids will run through walls for a chance, they can bring energy and intensity, have young supple minds that will follow tactical instructions. They don't have to be world class, it's not like all our purchased players are.

This is what galvanised Poch's revolution here and I think he's got further from it the longer time's gone on, he's become less "brave", has more fear of failure. The one thing Ferguson never feared was using young players for certain remits, even the functionary ones (the Fletcher's, Evans's, Brown's etc) as well as the decent ones. Because he knew they'd give him 100% every time and do what he asked. And Wenger's best years always seemed to be when he was developing young players not spending big money on buying them. And in doing that even if they don't end up top drawer, you kick the regulars up the arse, and you add to the kids value when you sell them on etc. Win/win.



It's not us, it's him. He was exactly the same at PSG, where playing for PSG greatly enhanced his "numbers". There has always been a lot of headless chicken wastage with him. He was always most effective in a 433 as a wide forward, and Poch did him no favours (or Kane/us) playing as a striker in his 442 bollocks, but Moura's not the most intelligent and never has been. I got a lot of shit on SC for calling him the Brazilian Lennon. Lots of whiz, not much bang. In this respect, I still see him as blocking pathways, because we've added another - not peanuts cheap - player that Poch is going to feel obliged to play (like Sissoko) meaning one of either Son, Alli or Lamela on the bench, meaning no Edwards, Shashoua, Roles on that bench. That's OK if the player is great, or bags of potential to be great, not so good if he isn't.

100% agree on what the academy players can bring to the team. This was without a doubt the very essence of what I thought (looks like you too) was the single most important thing Poch has done. For me it all came together in 2015 season and whilst we enjoyed some memorable games that year nothing underlines what academy products can do for your team, nothing typifies what this is than the North Landon derby at The Lane, when he started with Mason, Bentableb and Kane up top. That day we utterly destroyed Woolwich, we won every fist and 2nd ball, we played at an intensity and aggression we blew them off the park. That game was the day Woolwich fans knew their time was up. I've heard that it was Bentaleb that gave the pre-game team talk that day too, the day that Poch's trust in these young players was rewarded when they became men. I also think that many supporters finally got in-line with Poch's plan, as outside the ground before KO there was genuine fear as the team was pinged around our mobile phones, by final whistle fans were onboard.

Just look at Fergie's last title-winning side, on paper it's utter garbage, but they won the league by 10 points!!

So agree there is a deviation from this, certainly from an academy perspective and one of the things I love about the academy we have right now is the sheer volume of local lads, so many are genuine Spurs fans.

I'm going to be patient and see what happens in the summer with the lads who are out on loan, only then will we see the direction and plan that we have. Same too regarding our scouting and acquisition process, my hunch is that Poch has had to work hard and earn the right to take the reigns, I believe that the reason while Mitchell got the boot was down to Poch (only a guess) but the vibe that Poch gave when Mitchell was appointed was that he was opposed from the day he was announced, in his first press conf following Mitchell's joining us he was very quick and insistent that his acquisition had nothing to do with him. There are also those comments in his book about telling levy not to sign anyone if they are not specific targets. This resonates with me as Levy will always take a call from an opportunistic agent and within a couple of hours, the deal would be done. It's also interesting, and a thing that I like is that Mcdermott is on the comity that makes the call on transfers, makes you wonder what input he actually has, maybe he doesn't think some of his lads are ready????

So, for me this Jan window and Summer window I hope that whatever happens that players that leave and new signings made make sense, that they show something is joined up, they reveal an identifiable strategy.

Final element to this is I also don't think we have fully thought about the effect of losing Ugo Ehiogu has had at the academy. I was aware that there were always rumblings of discontent around his team selections and tactics in some games, just as there are currently with Burnett, I've always tried to stay out of these discussions as my knowledge of players and their true abilities is weak as I might only get to see them play 5 or so times a year. Also, it has always been my understanding that each game the focus is on the individual's performance rather than on winning that particular game (but we all, including those playing and managing like to win). But since he passed there has been a degree of flux. Also, the likes of KWP, Onomah, Amos, CCV and Winks to name but a few appeared so deeply connected to him that I got the impression that he was the big part of their individual motivation to make it. I loved hearing that he was in the crowd watching them make their debut's, now this may happen with Burnett, I've no idea but I there certainly isn't a vibe that it happens.

 

[Scouting the best]

I do believe if poch does not rate or like you , and you don’t follow his ethos or seem to have an opinion , or your own ideas you are out . I think mitchell leaving was down to him , another one was milos velkovic , we know there has been issues with first team players likeTownsend , Walker Rose and the same with our academy boys who Have gone on loan , Edwards and shaushoa especially . He only wants to work with boys who follow his regime and , how can I put this nicely , basically have no personality/character , In a nice way boys who won’t challenge him or rock the boat , becoming somewhat robot like .There is a lot of talented development squad players being overlooked and others who are getting the opportunities instead who are not so talented due to personality clashes . It’s a real shame as I think we will loose some of our best talents

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

I do believe if poch does not rate or like you , and you don’t follow his ethos or seem to have an opinion , or your own ideas you are out . I think mitchell leaving was down to him , another one was milos velkovic , we know there has been issues with first team players likeTownsend , Walker Rose and the same with our academy boys who Have gone on loan , Edwards and shaushoa especially . He only wants to work with boys who follow his regime and , how can I put this nicely , basically have no personality/character , In a nice way boys who won’t challenge him or rock the boat , becoming somewhat robot like .There is a lot of talented development squad players being overlooked and others who are getting the opportunities instead who are not so talented due to personality clashes . It’s a real shame as I think we will loose some of our best talents

My gut agrees with you on this. What is difficult to truly confirm is when we try to assess the individuals character. What I mean by this is it’s almost impossible to know about the lads temperament or character as we only get to see them play, there are no interviews where we can make that judgment. A classic example is Edwards, all the talk of him is about his attitude, now this maybe all 100% accurate but equally a lot appears to be judged on his hairstyle or whatever on his instagram account.

I remember what felt like a hate campaign against Mason, with ridiculous lies being put out saying he’s a Chelsea fan, not that it matters who these lads support but the point is that some twat put that out there with the sole intention to piant a negative aura around the player.

 

[White Van Jan]

I do believe if poch does not rate or like you , and you don’t follow his ethos or seem to have an opinion , or your own ideas you are out . I think mitchell leaving was down to him , another one was milos velkovic , we know there has been issues with first team players likeTownsend , Walker Rose and the same with our academy boys who Have gone on loan , Edwards and shaushoa especially . He only wants to work with boys who follow his regime and , how can I put this nicely , basically have no personality/character , In a nice way boys who won’t challenge him or rock the boat , becoming somewhat robot like .There is a lot of talented development squad players being overlooked and others who are getting the opportunities instead who are not so talented due to personality clashes . It’s a real shame as I think we will loose some of our best talents

I could have emboldened pretty much that whole post. It doesn't make good reading, does it? It's what we've long suspected - tow the line or you can sling yer hook. My way or the highway. imo it's not what the best man managers do; they manage to deal with the awkward sods too. Kicking talent out for a transgression, ie Bentaleb being a misguided plonker, well it just makes it so much harder to succeed with a strategy of promoting from within.

Wimmer for Milos, urgh. What a ricket.

 

[Spursidol]

First and foremost one thing that hasn't been discussed yet is we make shit loads of money in player trading (Snr players), we mustn't stop doing this as it is clearly a skill that works for us and despite many negative comments from many in our fanbase we are where we are because of our player trading not in spite of it. Other clubs up and down the league look to us at how to do things. It is NOT perfect, there is huge scope to improve and one area brings us round to stopping buying Sissoko, GKN, N'jie while giving mins to academy players and perhaps spending the combined salaries and initial purchase fees of those players on a de Jong for +£60m for example. Unless of course we do another Wimmer and turn a £4m player into a £20m player!! Is this a specific strategy? Is this why we bought N'jie and GKN? If so then it's hard to dismiss it out of hand.

My thinking around Tripps when we bought Aurier was that we were going to sell him, for me his only redeeming feature is what we paid for him, £4m!! IMO we have missed an opportunity to make an absolute killing (we still could). FWIW I think £25m for Aurier is also sound price in today's market. But agree and question the logic of buying a 3rd Full Back if you aren't going to sell one of them, that put simply doesn't make any sense at all.

Lucas is an interesting one, like Aurier the price we have paid for him is a steal. Whilst I love a player that can dribble and carry the ball, he's not constantly doing this in the right areas. He's not on the same wavelength as his teammates (or vice-versa). I confess I don't know if this is him, others around him off their levels, our change of shape (2 up top/4-3-3), injuries to Erkisen and Dele, whatever, there are a lot of moving parts and a real chicken and egg thing going on. But for me it isn't a massive concern, we are creating chances, our underlying numbers are good and this is when he's been an ever-present in the side. From what I've seen of him he's at a far higher level than Edwards (who I love BTW). I was concerned that Lucas couldn't add to this team without the ball, he's proved me wrong here, to the point where I think that's been one of his strengths in recent games. So, what am I saying here, I think he doesn't fit into the category of blocking an academy player. Time is on our side with him, let's see if it's a system thing, a Kane thing, a Dele thing and Eriksen thing and Son thing. By the end of the season, I think we will get a good idea of identifying and isolating the problem(s). If it is him then we will make decent money on him and who knows a full season of men's football might have pushed Edwards onto an acceptable level where we can integrate him, Shashoua too.

Another thing that has evaporated somewhat is a sense of a concrete strategy. It has been talked about and featured a lot in Poch's early days. There have been many times in press conferences where he has said we are building for the future and that actually we have progressed much faster than had been planned for. If this was the case then what is the plan? Has it changed since he arrived? Has he really done a U-turn on loaning players out to give them the opportunity to improve and come back and improve their chances at playing, or is he unchanged in his belief in only those that he rates he keeps close and with the group in his charge at Hotspur Way? As yet none of those loaned out have come back and integrated back into the squad (early days so a tad unfair at this point) but we need to actually see this play out in practice to see what is actually happening. Right now I don't know what our strategy is.

I think we need to better define this term 'Player Trading'.

As an example we bought Michael Carrick for circa £4m from West Ham where he was often on the bench and after a season sold him to ManU fir circa £16m, and with that money think we bought Berbatov foir £11m and roll forward a couple of years sold him to ManU for circa £30m......so yes we made a lot of money from the initial £4m investment.

But I would argue that we probably bought both players to enhance Spurs and only sold because the players were seduced by ManU. And with that I'm not sure the term player trading is appropriate. And similarly buying Dele for £5m or Dier for £4m and developing them to be far more valuable players is not part of player trading.

Chelsea have hovered up probably 30 young players who are currently on loan at other clubs having never played for them and probably never will before being sold on often for a profit. Now that is clearly player trading.

There's a few occasions where Spurs look to be close to player trading - putting N'Koudou and N'Jie out on loan after buying both and we'll probably sell N'Koudou.

So better to probably describe our policy as being 'buying young players and developing them' but that seems to have changed in the last couple of seasons to mainly buying players for 'now' who are already established at good clubs (Son, Lucas, Sanchez, Aurier etc ) where in many cases the possibility of increasing their value is not immediately obvious (although it may happen) and we haven't bought young players to develop since Dele (?) and equally have not promoted academy players to the first team squad since Winks was now 3 seasons ago (I discount the probably 10 players given one appearance in the first team and never seen again).

Problem is that most of the current first team are players bought before Poch arrived - so Poch's influence on buying has not been great. I wonder if Skipp being given a debut might herald a change back to our old policy. I guess we'll see in the next few weeks if Skipp re-appears in the first team.

And whether in January we might see one or two good youngsters bought to develop ala Dele or Dier as well as perhaps an experienced player bought fir 'now'

 

[Spursidol]

u18 game

I'd guess quite a few players kept back for the u19 game v PSV coming up, giving a chance to a few who haven't played that much such as Mukendi starting and the entire bench !

Ended 1-1 with Patterson scoring, Binks sent off and Oluwayemi saving a penalty

 

[bus-conductor]

Just want to put on record that I wasn’t as disappointed as some of you to see Marsh on the bench Wednesday.

Marsh is more one dimensional maybe, but I think he’s very competent at that dimension, very tenacious, industrious and technically decent, and sometimes a player like that can be exactly what is needed.

Dier is extremely one dimensional as a CM and not as dynamic as Marsh, and many are happy to see him out there “doing a job”. I’d much rather my busy cunt can actually do the “busy” as well as the “cunt” and Marsh does.

If you want a player to provide that more disciplined role, maybe centrally in a cm3, then Marsh could be just the ticket.