Deleted member 15314
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Same, he was really just playing all over the right side of the pitch.
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Yet another reason why I say the game is about the moments; not just the silverware......
Agree.... And whilst it didn't quite have the magnitude of Moura's heroics in Amsterdam, they've both had that type of "WOW, just WOW" games for us...
Though you could argue that the 3 points Bergwijn almost single-handedly won for us that night (bearing in mind where we were on the 94th minute) came in quite handy come the end of the season!
Has he though?
Cause it has been really obvious that Moura has been first alternative to be called upon.
I think if we would have had more games, he would have got more playing time, but not as much more than people here assume and not as much as he himself would want.
Well... I think that considering our current situation his peer would be Moura.
Berg got 4 goals + 2 assists in all comps with 871 minutes (3+1 in 546 in EPL)
Lucas got 6+8 within 2435 (2+6 in 1773 EPL)
So 145 minutes for G/A for Berg (136,5 in EPL)
174 minutes for G/A for Moura (221,6 in EPL)
Talking about offering nothing 99% of the time, I'd say this is much more fitting for Lucas Moura... who is also 29 while Berg is 24...
Bad comparison when one played so many more minutes. You'd expect their average g/a to drop off significantly. Bergwijn had his one in the million sub appearance vs Leicester + came on and scored immediately vs a finished Newcastle.
Lucas was a starter under Nuno and at first under Conte, and is first man off the bench. He's got lots of deficiencies but actually can beat defenders and ask questions. Bergwijn's Spurs career has offered very little aside from 2 moments.
Because of one game?
If we're looking to go up to that next level, Bergwijn isn't close to an ideal squad player. The top teams bring Pulisic, Jota or Grealish off the bench, not someone who scores 2 -3 goals a season on average and doesn't scare defenders.
You Sir, have a cold, cold heart....
Made of STONE!
CHISELLED from ROCK...
forged in ICE!
...if that's even geologically possible!
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Kind of hard to do more than being more efficient in the game time you are being given..
Also I do not buy this logic to any extent at all that with more time g/a drops off. There is no proof nor even logic behind that statement whatsover. Generally players that get more minutes play better and have to prove themselves in this process. Pretty sure that in Spurs team it has been case across past 5-6-7 years that attacking players with most minutes (Kane, Son, Bale) have also biggest G/A contribution and those who are bench players have it poorer (Lamela, Moura etc).
Berg had one in a million game, came and won us a game. Lucas also had almost half goal contributions in one (Palace) game, and he also provided assist in already decided game (Norwich). We can discredit and take away such contributions without no end.
Bergwijn also started season as starting XI player under Nuno btw.
I see very little difference between the two. Moura can beat defenders but does fuck all with the ball.
He is busy and runs around a bit, but offers next to nothing in terms of creating of finishing chances.
If we also take their whole Spurs career, Berg has goal or assist for every 197 minutes and Moura for 182 minutes (while getting lot more starts). Same numbers in EPL are 189 minutes for Bergwijn and 221 minutes per G/A for Moura. Both are not good enough in the bigger picture, but I don't get why we should prefer one that is almost 30 and is going to leave soon, while other is 24, has same output and could hopefully at least improve.
That game got us into the Champions League. It's like saying Lucas wasn't worth it, because he only played brilliantly in one game...
I didn't say he wasn't worth it. He was a decent punt and we'll probably get (more or less) our money back.
What I'm saying is he isn't a good enough player for a CL team who want to challenge those top spots, nor is Lucas on a consistent basis if we're being honest.
Why do you think he's not getting more game time under numerous managers? Why do they all seem to prefer Lucas?
Kulu has a better g/a record than Son & Kane if you go by per minutes. Go look at the players in PL history who have the best goal to minutes ratio. It's a lot of impact players. If you play less minutes then your ratio is likely skewed.
You keep Lucas because he wants to go back to Brazil soon anyway, whereas Bergwijn has value as a younger player, isn't much use off the bench (aside from ONE game) and has Dutch clubs who are interested. He isn't improving here, Conte barely uses him & his career has stagnated at Spurs.
(Oh and Bergwijn started the season in the first XI because Kane was out .. who else was he going to play? Lucas started over him when Kane was back, and Lucas started over him under Conte. There's a reason for this..)
Well that's 2 of the front 3 sorted for the F.A/League Cup teams then!
Bergwijn got injured, thats why he was left out in the start.
But if you ask why he has got more playing time - then this is good question. Ive never-ever understood it if I answer honestly. If we look at where players have had influence on games - I then could say that Moura has had also impact on max 2 games - Palace where he scored 1 and assisted 2 + Leeds that we won 2:1 where he gave an assists. Other games his contributions have come from hammering wins or losses.
If someone plans to leave, then let him fucking leave if he is subpar anyway. Why waste playing minutes for someone who is not good enough AND is not part of clubs future ( I get it when someone is actually very hard to replace and hence worth keeping; but not if they are subpar as well ) ? That was why I said we should have sold Moura in January or already in past summer. He is part of medicore past, not future in any shape or form.
Moura has 2 years left in his contract - it is not like it is expiring tomorrow. So today we have say about his future for upcoming 2 years. So we should absolutely move him on as fast as possible.
Though once more - I think in bigger picture we should just move on both - Lucas and Bergwijn. But with one it is more urgent from club's point of view.
P.S their estimated value is - Moura 20 mil and Bergwijn 18 mil (transfermarkt) so we could hope to get similar amounts for both.
We agree on that.
The issue with their estimated values is one has a clear suitor (Bergwijn, to Ajax) and the other doesn't, probably in large part due to age. The player also seems set on the aforementioned return to Brazil, so may not even accept a transfer before that.
We can force his hand.
We have to look after the club not someone else's dreams.
And if he does not want to sign with someone, then we could surely find a team (or two separate teams) that would take him on loan and would cover 100% of his salary.
P.S we do not know about specifics regarding Bergwijn - like how serious their interest was; was it managers wish (they have new gaffer now); how much they were willing to spend; etc.
He'll be remembered for a long time for his 2 late goals... I feel that win over Leicester was a positive turning point for Spurs.
Deleted member 15314
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Yeah, he'd do well at Inter, their attack is nothing to write home about. Old man Dzeko will probably need to be replaced.
A front line of Bergwijn on the left, Lautaro in the middle and Correa on the right would be excellent.
Bergwijn should be receptive to it. CL football, big name club, and his old pal from PSV Dumfries will be there.