Sorry this is so long but this is Henry Winter's interview with Jason Lee in The Times. I normally wouldn't copy/paste paid-for content but unless the admins aren't happy with this, I think it's important to read Jason Lee's view on what Baddiel (and Skinner) did and how difficult it was for him,
HENRY WINTER | JASON LEE INTERVIEW
Jason Lee: I was violated on so many levels in David Baddiel’s sketches. After receiving an overdue apology from his tormentor for ‘racism and bullying’, the former Nottingham Forest player opens up about the ordeal he and his family endured over the past 25 years
The stare was chilling, anger filled Jason Lee’s eyes and his body language was as taut as garrotte wire. Every ounce of the 51-year-old’s being was focused on David Baddiel as his old tormentor walked into a studio to meet him for the first time. Finally, Baddiel had come to apologise for the trauma he inflicted on Lee, then a Nottingham Forest forward, by blacking up and mocking his dreadlocks and finishing on the cult BBC comedy programme Fantasy Football League. Even now, 25 years on, Lee still gets people shouting: “He’s got a pineapple on his head.”
Baddiel was visiting Lee for his programme about antisemitism, Jews Don’t Count, a belated show of contrition. The moment it finishes, at 10pm on Channel4 on Monday night, Lee releases his powerful podcast, AbsoluteLee, on YouTube and Spotify about their meeting, their discussion and the misery Baddiel inflicted.
Baddiel readily concedes the series of sketches with Frank Skinner, who played the Forest manager Frank Clark, were “racist and bullying”. Lee is a strong individual and spent another 12 years in the game after leaving Forest in 1997, moved briefly into management, before taking on an important role in equalities at the Professional Footballers’ Association, but his fury with Baddiel remained.
“With Baddiel, I wasn’t happy you’re making me out to be a clown, you’re trying to demean what I’m doing, and I’m not going to let it happen,” Lee says, talking via Zoom on Friday. “I’m not going to fold. I’ve got mouths to feed. The fact that I played for so long afterwards showed I had that resilience to keep cracking on. I’m not a clown. I was violated on so many levels in those sketches."
The dehumanising was relentless. “I felt I should be getting royalties I was on that show so often,” Lee continues. “When I watched it with the other Forest players it’s: do you laugh along with it or show everybody you’re upset? I was being bullied. I brush it off and say, ‘Yeah, whatever.’ I’d never exhibit any weakness. The environment that we’re in you can’t exhibit any weakness, nobody wanted to hear me say, ‘I’m distraught, I’m devastated.’ Listen, I’ve got a game to play. I have to perform, they’re relying on me.
“I fought it the best way I could in terms of playing football; proving people wrong’s been a fuel for me. I’m lucky enough that I played sport and was able to always release some of my anger, my tension, and the field of play is the place where I can prove myself. Players, coaching staff and fans tried to wind me up with it [the pineapple jibe]. Some people try and diminish my achievements. I have to remind myself from time to time how long I played the game and what I achieved and I should be proud of what I’ve done. I have to let people know I’m not a clown. They were basically saying I was shit in the programme. Then Baddiel comes in [to the studio] and tries to spin it and say, ‘I knew you were a brilliant player, blah, blah, blah.’ ”
Lee hurt most because his family hurt. “The most disappointing thing around it all is that my mother is no longer with us and she never got to hear Baddiel apologise,” Lee adds. “To be a parent and witness your son go through that, to go to a stadium and listen to people abuse your child must be difficult. There were times when I told her don’t come to games, stay away, my biggest supporter. It was confrontational for my family at times. I was worrying about my performance and also thinking, ‘I hope my wife and mum are OK.’ They would tell me their stories after the game and I was fuming, feeling that’s what you have to endure.
“When you talk about trauma and long impacting I’m sure it affected my [four] children. They’re extremely proud of what I do, what I’ve achieved, what I come through but I’m equally proud of how they’ve endured what they had and come through it. They had to navigate being the child of somebody that’s got a little bit of notoriety, gone to school and wore their hair in a certain way and had to deal with that, wanting to play football and then had to deal with that. When I put it to people singing these things, ‘Would you be happy if your child had to receive that?’ it’s only then that they realised and go, ‘Oh wow, it’s too much.’ This programme is very important for my kids. For my family, my sister, my brothers this is important to them. It’s just that my mother is no longer here . . .”
No wonder he received Baddiel so coldly. “My eyes can be intense,” Lee agrees. “Body language is important. It was long overdue. I’ve never seen him before until he walked in. Timing is everything. He’s back in the public eye again. Football tournaments are his moments. ‘Three Lions’ (Football’s Coming Home) is everywhere again. And he’s doing his show. I understand fully he’s used this situation mostly to benefit the documentary. To move forward he needed to address this situation.
“Before Baddiel, I was receiving abuse for my skin colour or ‘You’re not good enough’. I was desensitised to most abuse. But the situation with Baddiel was a whole new layer of abuse. Baddiel blacked up. He’s highly intelligent but how people process things in their mind is incredibly complex. He may not see the importance or relevance of blacking up but he would fully understand how it felt to be abused as a Jewish person. It’s now happening to him, the realisation: this is how I feel, that’s how Jason feels.
“When he started portraying me, I was actually playing well. They didn’t like my appearance but then [they’d] go and find some mistakes in the way I played. I remember a sketch against Everton where they created a mock goal the whole width of the pitch but I actually scored in that game.”
Lee says he was playing well when the TV abuse started. On April 8, 1996, Lee scored at Elland Road. “I held my hair up and that was me like, ‘Here I am, here are my locks — deal with that.’ I kept my locks for the duration of the season. I was proud of my locks. I tried to explain the cultural meaning behind that. Growing them I felt empowered. I was always going to cut my hair at some stage. Out of stubbornness I wasn’t going to cut it when I was getting the abuse. ‘You cut your hair because of him.’ I gave my eldest daughter the scissors to cut my locks. She’s always been my biggest supporter, she’s been there from a very, very, very young age having to deal with it.”
It was merciless. “Baddiel was building his career, was on the way up and probably felt invincible, untouchable. But what about the people around him? So many people were complicit. BBC2. It’s selling, it’s popular, we are all getting paid. It’s working. He wasn’t held to account.
“Suing? That never really crossed my mind, to go down the courts. There’s a lack of confidence in the legal system. I’ve been pulled over regular times for driving my car. You’re talking about that institutional racism, so why would I go to them? I don’t feel that anyone is really going to be supportive of my complaint. There would have been a pile-on, people saying, ‘You’re oversensitive, you got a chip on his shoulder.’ ”
The belittling of footballers has ebbed, and Lee admires Gareth Southgate and the present generation of England players using their voices and platforms for change. “I’ve known Gareth a long time. He grew up in a changing room with Ian Wright, Andy Gray, Mark Bright, John Salako. I speak to Gareth regularly and he’s doing a great job enabling and ensuring the players do have a voice. The FA is incredibly lucky to have Gareth. The players have to keep pushing.”
Raheem Sterling tackles racism and Marcus Rashford feeds hungry schoolchildren. “I’m really proud of the new generation. They’re doing great,” Lee says. “People are looking for Raheem to have poor form so they can claim, ‘You should get back to just playing football,’ and it’s the same in Marcus, who went through a period of poor form but he’s back. It’s not outside interests. People can perform poorly. Every time people tried to dumb us down as footballers and say ‘Just concentrate on football,’ how demeaning is that?” Lee’s experienced enough demeaning.
