"Yid" chanting...

[S.L.R]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name

Maybe we should just chant Bruce in honour of Robert the Bruce's local connections to Tottenham, but then we could sort of change it to Brucie Bonus or something.

 

[tehTrunk]

Out of interest, would it be any more acceptable to sing 'kike' army in the same way?

 

[Burko]

I say we just win the league, then we can just sing "Champions, Champions, Champions"

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

And I won't get on to 'Chav'. That's for another time.

That just made me feel a bit weird , so its not ok for her to use a negative word describing a group of people but he can retaliate by using a negative word describing another group of people (allbeit not ethnically or religion based it still remains singling out a group of people)

Yep. I know. It's the contradictions of the human condition.

It's another thread for another time, but my personal viewpoint is that 'Chav' is a classist insult used by the middle classes to box a sub-class into a neat category to make themselves feel superior.

But, as I said, that's for another day.

 

[S.L.R]

I never use chav to describe Croydon Facelift types but use it quite often to describe Chelsea fans. Might just have to stop distinguishing between them and woolworths and just call them all scum, without bothering to identify what variety of.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name

Have you ever discussed the term with your family?

I think I'm perhaps sensitive to it for a number of reasons. Firstly, I am old enough that my grandparents were of wartime age and my grandfather's family left Eastern Europe just before the age of Nazism. However, many extended family members remained behind and ended up in the concentration camps, so I don't take any ethic profiling easily. Plus, I am actually, some would say, only half Jewish. I am Jewish on my maternal side. As you know, if the blood runs through the mother's side than that makes you fully Jewish, irrespective of your father. My father is of Scottish Christian origin. It was actually this mixed marriage that caused offensive names to be said towards each side of the family, which was not pleasant. I do not often refer to myself as a Jew because I do not practice the faith itself (as I am an agnostic) but racially I am.

In addition to this, with some irony, my most recent long term relationship was to an Iranian (non-practicing) muslim. Plus, after 15 years in immigration law I have seen many different types of people and many different racial mixes.

So, you see, the potential impact of any sorts of racial slurs or profiling is very, very real to me. I take it very seriously. In the modern age there is no place for it. Making a racial slur that still causes offence socially acceptable is the first step towards segregation IMO. We need to move beyond that and all live together as human beings, not seperated and degraded groups.

 

[Yidington]

I feel an immense sense of pride & feeling of belonging to something when I say, overhear or am part of a chant using the word Yid.

I am not Jewish, I have no connections to the country, the religion, their beliefs or the horrific injustices their people have suffered.
I am obviously not directly privy to the experiences & feelings that come along with that and as a result whilst I do understand some find it offensive and wouldn't ever think to tell them differently, I cant personally say i've ever felt anything but passion when saying it.
I think thats where the difference is for me. I'm not dismissing its racial, negative connotations but i've just never assosciated the word with anythin but Spurs & passion for Spurs.
Almost as if you were to tell me the word 'Lilywhite' was offensive in another language/culture, it just means Lilywhite to me. I dont wanna start sounding all Suarez on it so i'll move on.

 

[HyNdZee]

Anything can be claimed to be offensive. I'm not denying that the word Yid is offensive, but I think "...and if you are an ars*nal fan surrender or you'll die" to a loyalist tune about murdering Catholics carries a bit more punch and I have no problem singing that.

Next they'll start banning drums and making you sit down... oh wait.

I do get some of the point and I don't like chanting Yids every time we play as I don't see a need for it against a team that has no idea what we are on about. But teams like Liverpool, Chelsea, West Ham, Woolwich, even Villa start up the hissing "banter".

I don't think that offensiveness aimed our way will be wiped out because we stop chanting the Y-word. They probably find the word Tottenham offensive, or cheering when a goal goes in offensive. So I don't give a shit if anyone is offended by it, I'd be happy to explain why we do it. If they still can't understand then, frankly, they offend me and I want them banned.

 

[Freudlyuchenko]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name

Have you ever discussed the term with your family?

I think I'm perhaps sensitive to it for a number of reasons. Firstly, I am old enough that my grandparents were of wartime age and my grandfather's family left Eastern Europe just before the age of Nazism. However, many extended family members remained behind and ended up in the concentration camps, so I don't take any ethic profiling easily. Plus, I am actually, some would say, only half Jewish. I am Jewish on my maternal side. As you know, if the blood runs through the mother's side than that makes you fully Jewish, irrespective of your father. My father is of Scottish Christian origin. It was actually this mixed marriage that caused offensive names to be said towards each side of the family, which was not pleasant. I do not often refer to myself as a Jew because I do not practice the faith itself (as I am an agnostic) but racially I am.

In addition to this, with some irony, my most recent long term relationship was to an Iranian (non-practicing) muslim. Plus, after 15 years in immigration law I have seen many different types of people and many different racial mixes.

So, you see, the potential impact of any sorts of racial slurs or profiling is very, very real to me. I take it very seriously. In the modern age there is no place for it. Making a racial slur that still causes offence socially acceptable is the first step towards segregation IMO. We need to move beyond that and all live together as human beings, not seperated and degraded groups.

Well a lot of my family did end up in the concentration camps, though my grandfather escaped as he was part of the Austrian Army 'in exile' so I understand that a large part of my ancestry went up in smoke unfortunately. I also do not like the idea that we are all segregated, it makes irrational sense that we stay with those of similar origins of ourselves so I am against racial slurs but when I am on the end of any racism I have never been referred to as a 'Yid' just a Jew, so I have actually only heard the expression Yid=in terms of Spurs supporters, or when one is referring to the language Yiddish.

I am a practicing Jew fyi but I don't call my self Jew other than in the context of religion, I don't believe that it should be or at least in my sense an ethnicity, to that I call myself English.

Unfortunatley my father is a gooner, he doesn't quite understand that by living in North London and by that I mean North of the river that the team to support is Spurs so when I talk to him about football it is either in the giving of banter or to talk about how Chelsea and Man United are cunts.

 

[tehTrunk]

Anything can be claimed to be offensive. I'm not denying that the word Yid is offensive, but I think "...and if you are an ars*nal fan surrender or you'll die" to a loyalist tune about murdering Catholics carries a bit more punch and I have no problem singing that.

Next they'll start banning drums and making you sit down... oh wait.

I do get some of the point and I don't like chanting Yids every time we play as I don't see a need for it against a team that has no idea what we are on about. But teams like Liverpool, Chelsea, West Ham, Woolwich, even Villa start up the hissing "banter".

I don't think that offensiveness aimed our way will be wiped out because we stop chanting the Y-word. They probably find the word Tottenham offensive, or cheering when a goal goes in offensive. So I don't give a shit if anyone is offended by it, I'd be happy to explain why we do it. If they still can't understand then, frankly, they offend me and I want them banned.

Here's a question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'Yids' to anyone without an inkling of the link to Tottenham or the argument that it's about 'reclaiming' the word, look like?

Life doesn't exist in a tiny bubble in N17. The rules of what are or aren't racist or offensive words aren't free to be defined within White Hart Lane by a predominantly non-Jewish supporter base.

The world in which the stadium/club/game exists, considers the term 'Yid' to be wrong.

Don't think there is much wiggle room when you consider it in that way.

 

[Blanchflower]

Here's a question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'Yids' to anyone without an inkling of the link to Tottenham or the argument that it's about 'reclaiming' the word, look like?

Life doesn't exist in a tiny bubble in N17. The rules of what are or aren't racist or offensive words aren't free to be defined within White Hart Lane by a predominantly non-Jewish supporter base.

The world in which the stadium/club/game exists, considers the term 'Yid' to be wrong.

Don't think there is much wiggle room when you consider it in that way.

Spurs fans using the word has curtailed other rival supporters from using it as a form of abuse - or at least it did historically when the authorities were happier to turn a blind eye to such things

No opposition fan, racist or not, wants to stand there shouting the same word as the people they are hoping to cause offence to.

 

[tehTrunk]

Why does that make it right?

 

[Éperons]

I also wonder if that's empirically the case anymore.

 

[1882]

I feel an immense sense of pride & feeling of belonging to something when I say, overhear or am part of a chant using the word Yid.

I am not Jewish, I have no connections to the country, the religion, their beliefs or the horrific injustices their people have suffered.
I am obviously not directly privy to the experiences & feelings that come along with that and as a result whilst I do understand some find it offensive and wouldn't ever think to tell them differently, I cant personally say i've ever felt anything but passion when saying it.
I think thats where the difference is for me. I'm not dismissing its racial, negative connotations but i've just never assosciated the word with anythin but Spurs & passion for Spurs.
Almost as if you were to tell me the word 'Lilywhite' was offensive in another language/culture, it just means Lilywhite to me. I dont wanna start sounding all Suarez on it so i'll move on.

Would that be the lesser-known Country of Jewish by any chance..?

I get your point about the word 'Lilywhite' for example which actually means 'titty-juggler' in Flemish!!!

Mind you, SEGA actually does means wank in Italian!!! ...who knew? (obviously not the makers of SEGA, that's for sure...)

 

[tehTrunk]

I also wonder if that's empirically the case anymore.

Good point.

 

[Blanchflower]

Why does that make it right?

It doesn't, but it must be fucking frustrating for a racist fan not being able express his feelings without sounding as if he part of the group he wants to direct his abuse at.

 

[Éperons]

One casualty of the prevalence of the n-word in mainstream US cultural discourse w/ African-American roots is that it gives racists cover to use it.

'Why is it ok for blacks to use a word and not whites? Aren't we supposed to be all equal?'

I obviously wasn't there when shit kicked off, etc., between Spurs and other clubs. I've never been hissed at, etc. But I sort of suspect that, in this age of militancy regarding anti-racism, should these questions be not left to CCTV, etc., to decide, and not to vigilante Spurs fans?

 

[r-u-s-x]

It's an old one, but something that has once again been raised recently.

Understand the argument that we're reclaiming the word, but would we dream of doing the same were the word "n*gger" and not "yid" ?

The more I think about it, the less comfortable I feel chanting it.

Thoughts?

My thoughts before reading the thread. If at a point in the past we were being abused about having more black fans than anyone else and we used the N word - the word then, at least in this part of the world, became associated more with a club than with the origional meaning. I would be both happy and proud to have made a "hate" word obsolete.

Every thing upsets some people - where will this end, no swearing - no shouting?

 

[Éperons]

no swearing - no shouting?

If one can't manage a cursestorm that also manages to avoid being racist, homophobic, and misogynist, then one is perhaps not creative enough to have earned the privilege of swearing.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name

Have you ever discussed the term with your family?

I think I'm perhaps sensitive to it for a number of reasons. Firstly, I am old enough that my grandparents were of wartime age and my grandfather's family left Eastern Europe just before the age of Nazism. However, many extended family members remained behind and ended up in the concentration camps, so I don't take any ethic profiling easily. Plus, I am actually, some would say, only half Jewish. I am Jewish on my maternal side. As you know, if the blood runs through the mother's side than that makes you fully Jewish, irrespective of your father. My father is of Scottish Christian origin. It was actually this mixed marriage that caused offensive names to be said towards each side of the family, which was not pleasant. I do not often refer to myself as a Jew because I do not practice the faith itself (as I am an agnostic) but racially I am.

In addition to this, with some irony, my most recent long term relationship was to an Iranian (non-practicing) muslim. Plus, after 15 years in immigration law I have seen many different types of people and many different racial mixes.

So, you see, the potential impact of any sorts of racial slurs or profiling is very, very real to me. I take it very seriously. In the modern age there is no place for it. Making a racial slur that still causes offence socially acceptable is the first step towards segregation IMO. We need to move beyond that and all live together as human beings, not seperated and degraded groups.

Well a lot of my family did end up in the concentration camps, though my grandfather escaped as he was part of the Austrian Army 'in exile' so I understand that a large part of my ancestry went up in smoke unfortunately. I also do not like the idea that we are all segregated, it makes irrational sense that we stay with those of similar origins of ourselves so I am against racial slurs but when I am on the end of any racism I have never been referred to as a 'Yid' just a Jew, so I have actually only heard the expression Yid=in terms of Spurs supporters, or when one is referring to the language Yiddish.

I am a practicing Jew fyi but I don't call my self Jew other than in the context of religion, I don't believe that it should be or at least in my sense an ethnicity, to that I call myself English.

Unfortunatley my father is a gooner, he doesn't quite understand that by living in North London and by that I mean North of the river that the team to support is Spurs so when I talk to him about football it is either in the giving of banter or to talk about how Chelsea and Man United are cunts.

So despite your background your judgment for whether or not it is offensive is down to whether or not you have been called a yid? Isn't that a little, well, um, self-centred? Surely the measure of it must be whether or not sections of the Jewish communtiy are offended? Do you consider the fact that I am uncomfortable with it unjustified?

Oh, and if you are generationally Jewish then it is as much as race as a faith. We are, after all, ethnically descended from the Israelites and other ethnic tribes around the Middle East, are we not?