"Yid" chanting...

Yid chants, offensive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 7.8%
  • No

    Votes: 317 92.2%

  • Total voters
    344
Of course they've assumed it. They're making it very difficult to prosecute someone in WHL if they're making a blanket statement that the use of the slur is universally ok while in the stadium. Can we really say that there are never going to be anti-Semitics in WHL that wouldn't aggressively taunt a Jewish fan with the slur?
I`m norwegian, I`m not jewish, and I have only been to WHL 15 times or so, but I`ve never ever felt that there are any spurs fans that ever use yid in a negative way. In fact, my experience is the opposite, and I`ve seen spurs fans with jewish hats and caps sing Yid army from the top of their lungs with the same passion as all Spurs fans do. In my opinion you would have to be a retarted if you`re anti-semitic and support Spurs. You`ve really missed the mark when "choosing" what club to follow if that`s the case.
 
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Of course they've assumed it. They're making it very difficult to prosecute someone in WHL if they're making a blanket statement that the use of the slur is universally ok while in the stadium. Can we really say that there are never going to be anti-Semitics in WHL that wouldn't aggressively taunt a Jewish fan with the slur?
I don't agree that they've assumed it. They're trying to be pragmatic - and don't forget the tweeter specifically said 'chanting'. If they witnessed an individual using the word in an aggressive manner, prefixed with 'fucking', I'm sure some action would be taken.
 
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Then you're under qualified to opine on what I have said.
Haha... That is low.
So you can define that I`m not qualified to have an opinion on Spurs fans chanting "Yid" because I`m not jewish and norwegian? Right. Great logic (Sarcasm)

I`m sorry, but I feel more than qualified enough.

From Oxford dictionary:

Definition of Yid in English:
noun
informal, offensive
Jew.

So, we can agree on what the word means I guess. And from that we can deduce that the word can be used purely descriptive or as racial slur. Had it been only the latter, I`d have no problem with your position,
But that`s not how we (as in Spurs fans, probably not you though) use it, is it?

Had the police actually thought that to be the case, I am pretty confident the metropolitan police wouldn`t have
made the comment we`re discussing.
Neither would the Tottenham Hotspur Supporter Trust have helped the 3 fans being charged in the first place.
I suspect the Crown Prosecution Service wouldn`t have dropped the case either (because of lack of evidence).

I am also sensitive to the fact that probably almost all opposition fans that use the word, mean to use it as racial slur. But that`s, I guess, where we differ in opinion. I see no reason why any jewish person should take offense when, contrary to for instance the N word, yid actually has an informal use and it is in this context Spurs fans use it.

And for me, it boils down to this: Why on earth should we let facist/racist/nazi cunts be allowed to take a word that used to be purely informal and make it into a racist word?
If you choose to use norwegian negatively, you can. Call me a fucking norwegian and you have.
If enough people do it, at some point Oxford dictionary will ad "offensive" behind informal in the dictionary.
I`m sure, after some time, some norwegians would take offense, just as some jews and pakis (paki is also informal in the right context, as opposed to the N word) would take offense even when the word is used informally. But I choose not to be so fucking politically correct,
In my world, YOU don`t get to define that my identity (being norwegian) is a negative thing disqualifying me from having an opinion. And racist motherfucking Chelsea fans don`t get to define Spurs`s (albeit exaggerated) jewish background as being negative.

Only my non jewish norwegian opinion, but sod off for saying I can`t have it.
 
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It remains a highly emotive issue, which I think is healthy because it generates discussion & keeps the topic in the public domain. For that reason, I don't think that there is a significant erosion of the term.

As @joeclash says, it comes back down to "context"- & I'm specifically referring back to the "N" word/ "Y" word debate that adorns the forum toilet wall. If I demonstrate hostility using either word, or my use of either word is motivated by hostility, then it's a racially aggravated use of that word.

As @smokedsalmon says, there are dangers in any blanket policy, although I don't think that any Spurs fan chanting the word in the context of an "army" alongside several hundred/thousand other fans, would be using the word in a negative way. Owning the word in a large group is part of a fan's identity with other fans & the club. Most of us will have done it without giving it a second thought.

The danger I think is that rival fans can point to a blanket policy if their use of the word is in a racial or negative context. They can seek to hide behind the decision & it's where the line can get very blurry.

I still think that the use of the "Y" word has to be looked at on its own merits. If you have rival fans "hissing" & using the word in a negative way, it's still racist. If our travelling fans use it later today when we go 5-0 up, then I don't think it is.

I still see why so many people do find it offensive but it is part of the club's identity & used affectionately & positively by a large number of fans. It will always be a delicate subject & a fine line will always need to be trodden. That's no bad thing.
 
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WookieD

wharrgarbl 💫
Of course they've assumed it. They're making it very difficult to prosecute someone in WHL if they're making a blanket statement that the use of the slur is universally ok while in the stadium. Can we really say that there are never going to be anti-Semitics in WHL that wouldn't aggressively taunt a Jewish fan with the slur?
The point is Salmon, that they generally don't use the word Yid. This entire campaign was ill conceived and executed and a colossal waste of money. Instead of targeting racists they went for the soft under belly of regular Spurs fans.

What was attacking us meant to do? Make racists in some way repent as they watched the subjects of their hate being punished instead? Genuine racists were laughing their ass off as they continued to hiss and throw real racism around unchecked as the video cameras focused on Spurs fans singing Yid Army.
 
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I think this is a tough one. As a Jew, the club's association with Jews is probably something that initially drew me to it. I think the non-Jewish supporters' willingness to adopt a Jewish identity is a pretty powerful statement. Spurs supporters are saying "You can call us Jews. It doesn't bother us. We would be proud to be Jews."

On the flip side, rival fans hate Spurs. Therefore they hate "Yids." Our embrace of a Jewish association gives cover to racists to say anti-Semitic things under the guise of merely being anti-Spurs. But even worse, is that people who have no anti-Semitic intent do things that would be hurtful to Jews merely because they actually are trying to be anti-Spurs. Instead of "despicable Spurs" we are "despicable Yids." Without our embrace of a Jewish identity, these people would never unwittingly do offensive things.

As adults we can all talk intelligently about these issues and try to understand people's intent. But my biggest concern with all of this relates to children who attend matches. It's a really tough conversation to have with a kid explaining why certain chants are offensive and why others are not. If someone (maybe especially a Jew) wants to take a kid to see their hero Harry Kane, should they really have to deal with all of this heavy bullshit?

So like I said, I have very mixed feelings about Yid chanting. But (and this is my cultural bias) as an American, the concept that someone could got to jail for saying something offensive is crazy to me. I want to know who is a dirty fucking racist. My ideas are better than theirs and I want to be able to debate them, and humiliate them because of their stupidity. That is how we beat racism. Not by ensuring certain words are only said in privacy where I never would have the opportunity to counter them.
 
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Johnboy40

Where's the Kaboom?
It remains a highly emotive issue, which I think is healthy because it generates discussion & keeps the topic in the public domain. For that reason, I don't think that there is a significant erosion of the term.

As @joeclash says, it comes back down to "context"- & I'm specifically referring back to the "N" word/ "Y" word debate that adorns the forum toilet wall. If I demonstrate hostility using either word, or my use of either word is motivated by hostility, then it's a racially aggravated use of that word.

As @smokedsalmon says, there are dangers in any blanket policy, although I don't think that any Spurs fan chanting the word in the context of an "army" alongside several hundred/thousand other fans, would be using the word in a negative way. Owning the word in a large group is part of a fan's identity with other fans & the club. Most of us will have done it without giving it a second thought.

The danger I think is that rival fans can point to a blanket policy if their use of the word is in a racial or negative context. They can seek to hide behind the decision & it's where the line can get very blurry.

I still think that the use of the "Y" word has to be looked at on its own merits. If you have rival fans "hissing" & using the word in a negative way, it's still racist. If our travelling fans use it later today when we go 5-0 up, then I don't think it is.

I still see why so many people do find it offensive but it is part of the club's identity & used affectionately & positively by a large number of fans. It will always be a delicate subject & a fine line will always need to be trodden. That's no bad thing.
this. its exactly what baddiel did.
 
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this. its exactly what baddiel did.
Discuss it. It's proper to do so. To allow it with no challenge is saying it's ok to say it whenever, wherever, to whoever. Considering the number of people who don't like the word (& in spite of the popularity of rap music, I still know a lot of black people who hate the "N" word & refuse to "own it".) it remains a topic open for reasonable discussion.

Where I disagree with Baddiel is that it was coming from the fan of a club with clear racist motives - to its core. It was bollocks to put his fading star back on some sort of map using the "Y" word as a topic of debate. That idiot is a festering boil who can't accept he's had his 15 mins in the spotlight. If he cared about the use of the "Y" word, he wouldn't support a bunch of cunts who would happily beat him up just for being Jewish if he hadn't been famous.

:soldadowatch:
 
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Millbanks

Spurs - Champions Cup of Europe Winners 2011
it's assumed that no Jew in the ground has an issue with it
It's not. It's accepted that Spurs fans (as they have been for years) are chanting it in a positive manner about themselves, rather than direction offensive language towards any individual or group of people. Arresting Spurs fans for chanting 'Yid Army' was always a ridiculous stance, when a number of the away fans tucked in the corner are making genuine racist remarks, noises and signals, and walking away to do it all again next weekend.

I completely understand if you, and others, find the word offensive in a certain context. Some of the stories I've heard of away fans at The Lane are horrendous. But I do not have sympathy for anyone taking offence to 20,000 Spurs fans echoing 'Yid Army' around WHL.

If someone (maybe especially a Jew) wants to take a kid to see their hero Harry Kane, should they really have to deal with all of this heavy bullshit?
Unfortunately, yes. Football is not a spectator sport for children. If you want to take your kids to a game (I certainly will be as mine grow up and my nephews and nieces all have) they need to understand the environment they're in.

I see it as no different to if you're at a social event with your children. Words will be used they won't understand nor are they allowed to use. That doesn't change what's right and wrong for them. You explain it to them. Or you never take them anywhere that they might hear a swear word. Keep them tucked up at home away from the horrors of the world.

Sorry. I don't mean to come across as sarcastic or patronising. But I've been to The Lane dozens of times, and I've never had any trouble nor sat/stood anywhere that made me think 'I can't bring my children here'. Normally by the time the game finishes the love you feel for the guys either side of you are almost on par with that of your family! It's a great experience, and something I want my children to witness.
 
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How can anyone find it offensive. Here is the definition, copied and pasted

In Yiddish, the word "Yid" Yiddish: ייד‎ is neutral or even complimentary, and in Ashkenazi Yiddish-speaking circles it is frequently used to mean simply "fellow," "chap," "buddy," "mate," etc., with no expressed emphasis on Jewishness (although this may be implied by the intra-Jewish context). Plural is יידן [jidn].

In Yiddish, a polite way to address a fellow Jew whose name one does not know is Reb Yid, meaning "Sir." The Yiddish words yidish or yiddisher (from Middle High German jüdisch) is an adjective derived from the noun Yid, and thus means "Jewish".
 
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So first time poster, and have to agree with The Yinzer. Live in the states and started following EPL when my big kids were born. At the time there were only a couple of live matches on and, being Jewish, I was drawn to Spurs partially because of the "Yid" aspect. There are lots of nasty slurs but Yid has very little negative connotation in our community.

As a side note, happy to have found you guys. You have a great forum going.
 
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The Met getting away from this is/was inevitable on the basis that you can't arrest 20,000 people and the chanting had clearly no racist intent. From the perspective of managing a crowd, no one could possibly arrest those numbers and no judge could say that it was used en masse by our fans in an antisemitic way.

This should never have been a legal debate, it's a moral one. We can debate this forever on the moral side and it's never going to go away.

It is clear that some Jewish people take offence at the word Yid, this is not just David Baddiel, who has made a serious mistake in trying to tackle it the way he has. Would a Chelsea fan like a Spurs fan lecturing them on some of the offensive rhetoric coming from their fans?

We need to be mindful of it's connotations outside of the Lane, I have said it before but I would rather we found other ways of identifying ourselves as Spurs fans, I don't think that's the majority view though, that's on this forum or at the ground.

In the context of the game, when used by Spurs fans I know it's not offensive, but us continuing to use it forever, I am not sure that's right.
 
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eanN17

Supporter
I know this is complicated, but surely something that has evolved from racism ending up in something that counters racism, as Spurs fans standing tall together is reason enough to be proud of the Yiddo-chants.

There is a lot of good reasons to have a go at people that are being racist, xenophobic etc. This isn't it, and for that reason I think it should be applauded as an example how people should react when someone in your group is attacked in some way or another.
 
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