"Yid" chanting...

[jimmyriggle]

I'd love that.

Thing is, they'll be covered. We know what they meant, but they didn't actually say the word Hitler.

Doesn't matter. Didn't someone suggest that whatever it is you're saying, if it's motivated by hate or racism it's a criminal offense?

Anyway I've emailed them. The app to report people is useless in the ground because I get no signal there!

here's the email I sent to kick it out.

Spoiler

Good afternoon,

I am writing to express my sadness and frustration with scenes that I witnessed at the match between Spurs and West Ham United on Sunday 6th October 2013.

I am a Spurs season ticket holder of several years and have been attending matches since 1992. I also come from a family that is entirely Jewish in its make-up. One of my grandparents fought against the Nazis in the second world war, the other was a young boy living in fear as his family was displaced and eventually settled in the UK. Several ancestors of mine had to go through the ordeal of the Russian pogroms and Hitler's concentration camps. Not all of them made it out alive.

Since I can remember, I have chanted the 'y word' at White Hart Lane. Even more so when we play against two teams in particular who have a history and current track record of disgusting anti-semitic abuse towards our fan base - West Ham and Chelsea. I do this out of pride and defiance. The abuse that birthed the term 'Yid Army' is very much alive and well in some quarters, yet it is criminally under-reported. I also feel heartened that non-Jewish Spurs fans align themselves with the club's traditional Jewish fans (minority or otherwise.) There are fewer friendlier places in the country for a Jewish person than the home end at White Hart Lane on a match day

This Sunday, amongst a growing media furore driven by both the FA and MET police's recent statement referring to use of the 'y word' and a small number of well-known individuals, namely David Baddiel and Peter Herbert of the Society of Black Lawyers, I took the police at their word and refrained from saying the word even once, for fear of arrest. Others chose to ignore the warnings and that's their decision. But for me, the atmosphere was very oppressive, with an inordinate amount of police officers in the home end watching us like hawks and taking notes in little notepads. Essentially, as someone with zero history of violence or problems with the law, I felt criminalised.

Sadly, a large number of West Ham fans to my left (and I'm talking a few hundred here) were clearly heard to be singing the following:
"He's coming for you. He's coming for you. We can't say his name. He's coming for you."
For those familiar with previous meetings between the two clubs, this is a clear reference to Adolf Hitler. In fact, very few of the anti-semitic songs we have endured over the years use the 'y word' at all.
The train home was a similar story, with the away fans looking to provoke us with further thinly veiled anti-semitic abuse.

Those Spurs fans who had the bravery to sing 'yid army' back at these vile people were greeted with gleeful counter-chants from the away end of 'racists! racists!'

So you see, because Tottenham fans and our use of one word in a non-aggravating way has become the media focus of the anti-semitism debate, the very people who chose to victimise us now feel they can do so with impunity AND laugh in our faces at the same time. It's hard to describe quite how depressing this feels to people like me. Already the media focus post match is on the one Spurs fan who was arrested and cautioned. I've not seen messrs Baddiel or Herbert say anything about West Ham fans' contribution to proceedings.

I completely understand the reason for a debate around the 'y word.' I accept that Jewish non-Spurs fans (and even some Spurs fans) find it distasteful. Whilst I don't agree with them, I respect their opinion. However, it seems that the original victims of the abuse, the Tottenham fanbase (Jewish or otherwise), have been made out to be the root of the problem before any proper consultation has taken place.

It is my hope that this email will encourage you, as a celebrated campaigner for equality in football, to do the following:
1. Publicly report the anti-semitic chanting that was prevalent from West Ham fans on Sunday and demand that action be taken
2. Advise the FA and other relevant authorities to reframe this debate, moving the focus away from the use of a word (which in itself is semiologically complex) and towards the more serious problem of anti-semitic chanting by fans of particular clubs both at Tottenham games and their other matches
3. Plan an educative campaign to help younger fans to understand why chanting about Hitler and concentration camps is unacceptable, as opposed to championing that ridiculously simplistic video created by the Baddiel brothers.

I look forward to hearing from you.

James

blatantly getting an email back saying TLDR

 

[Bardi]

Interestingly enough, our next opponents are Cardiff who celebrate the fact they've been abused as "sheep shaggers" by bringing inflatable sheep to their games. I can only assume that the FA will charge Cardiff fans with being racist towards Welsh people (after all, you don't have to be Welsh to be a Cardiff fan)

The Society of Baa Baa Black Sheep Lawyers will be all over them soon.

 

[Joe Clash]

 

[zin]

I don't like the word "bubbles" sung by West Ham fans as it's a word used in a derogatory way about Greeks and I don't like that they are blowing Greeks forever, I know the club is run by porn barons but there are kids in the ground listening to this.

I shall raise my complaint with the FA as a reasonable observer.

 

[EighteenEightyTwo]

I'm thinking about getting this banner made and just wanted some feedback. Does it convey the right message? Would it be allowed in grounds or is the 'yiddo' too obvious?

 

[WookieD]

Fuck em all, fuck em all
The league, The FA and Baddiel
We're not the racists, it's usually our guests
No we're not the racists, go bother the rest

And repeat...

 

[OldSpur]

Have to be honest we are not a 'jewish club' We were founded by Presbyterians and this all started in the early 80's and the first time I ever heard it was 1980 v wet spam. (could have been 79 but no earlier) So therefore we existed for nearly a hundred years without this tag. It was scholar that started it and of course after that we have had a string of jewish chairmen and board members but then who hasn't? One of the most 'english' of clubs, Leeds United were run and owned by Jews, and in fact there is a quote that says 'without the jews Leeds United would not exist' they had Leslie Silver long before we had Alan Sugar. It's also well known that woolwich have as many if not more jewish fans than us and had david dein and daniel fizman. Man Utd are owned by the glazers and most ironically of all both wet spam and the vermin from sw6 are run and funded by jews! These were the very teams fans who started all this against us! Personally it doesn't bother me and it is now so ingrained in the minds of people it will be tough to stop it but I think we as fans did the right thing by saying 'ok we'll call ourselves the yids, so fucking what!' We live in a world where every fucker gets 'offended' or 'disrespected'. I support Tottenham Hotspur - fuck all the politics!

 

[Tucker]

Can't open that what is it?

It's a letter someone posted on the Glory Glory Tottenham Hotspur page on FB

here it is in full

Allan O'neill
Letter to baddiel from the poster nty on SIMB

It is a real counter blast....

Dear David

Here we are again. The Y word. Or to refer to its real name, The C Word. Because as you and I both know this little problem is not about Spurs fans using the word Yid in a positive or negative manner. Its about feeling uncomfortable at Chelsea games.

I can appreciate where you are coming from. As a Jewish Tottenham fan myself, going to Stamford Bridge is an incredibly difficult day out for me. Im 37 and I look like a typical NW London Jew. You and I would pick each other out as Jews from 100 yards at any holiday destination on Earth. I even have a brilliant Jewish hooter to top off the look. I am what I am. Getting off the tube at Fulham Broadway though, I might as well have that yellow star sewn to my coat, because you are quite right this is not what football is about. Its a quite vile experience and as a father of two boys, one that I wont be putting them through until they are a lot older, if at all. To be honest though, this is your problem and not mine. We turned an insult into a positive. All on our own. The gay community did it with the word queer. Its quite clever really. Quite why you suggest that those who turned the insult into a term of fraternity should lead the way, so those that use it as a racial insult can be told not to use it, is quite frankly illogical.

Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds. These are the three places where I have heard the gassing noises and felt that pang of nausea in my stomach. A pang you describe and which Im sure you feel somewhat ashamed about. Be that as it may, Tottenham on a match day is probably the safest environment in England for a Jewish person. Isnt that lovely? My family have 4 tickets and we are reform Jews. However I often give any spares to two ultra orthodox Spurs fans. They both wear kippot and one of them looks like every rabbi youve ever seen in your haggadah. They get cheered through the streets of Tottenham. They love it! People smile at them, chant Yiddo at them and they wear their spurs shirts and their tzitzit with pride. How wonderful is that? In an era where there is so much bitterness and negativity, these two fellas can enjoy their football and their religion and feel totally safe. Thirty years ago that might have not been the case as the bananas hailed down on black wingers and coins were thrown at Jews to see if they would pick them up.

David, I am a huge fan of your work, but in this you are so wide of the mark that I find your view offensive. I find what you are trying to do, actually borderline anti-semetic. Dont hide away the victims and shut them up because it makes your match day experience difficult. This is Chelseas problem. This is West Hams problem. This is Leeds Uniteds problem.

In Germany in 1933, SS men stood outside Jewish shops to deter anyone from entering. In 1934, buses, trains and park benches had seats marked out for us to sit on and our children were taught specifically anti-semetic ideas. In 1935 the Nuremberg Law was passed and Jews lost their rights to be German citizens and marriage between Jews and non-Jews became illegal. You know how this story ends.

In 2013 Jews and non Jews in a small corner of London, are united. Please please please, dont poppycock that up.

 

[jimmyriggle]

Just wrote to West Ham too. On the warpath

Spoiler

Good afternoon,

As a Jewish Spurs fan I was delighted to read the statement that West Ham United's owners issued prior to the match on Sunday:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/spurs-yid-row-read-letter-2338143

With the furore in the build up focusing so much on the so-called 'y word' and its use by Spurs fans, it was heartening to see your club's hierarchy recognise that sadly there is still an element within its fanbase that feel it is funny to make anti-semitic remarks towards or about our fans.

However, having clearly heard a considerable number of Hammers fans sing the following, "He's coming for you, he's coming for you, we can't say his name, he's coming for you" (a clear reference to a previous song referencing Adolf Hitler's pursuit of Jews), I would like your assurances that the club will investigate this matter fully and act on the promises outlined in the letter mentioned above.

I feel it's important to note that, on Sunday, I did my part by not once chanting the 'y word.' Even though I don't entirely agree with the FA and Police's stance on the matter, I'd rather not be arrested because of it. Unfortunately a large number of travelling West Ham fans chose to take advantage of the position Spurs fans found ourselves in. You can imagine how frustrating this will have been for myself and fellow supporters.

I hope that West Ham United will continue to work with the relevant groups and authorities to stamp out anti-semitism and all other forms of abuse on match days.

Kind regards,

 

[Thelonious]

Spurs responded to Herbert's claims by defending their supporters and pointing out that their fans have in the past been subjected to taunts about the Holocaust.

"Our position on this topic is very clear," a Tottenham statement read.
"The club does not tolerate any form of racist or abusive chanting.
"Our guiding principle in respect of the 'Y-word' is based on the point of law itself - the distinguishing factor is the intent with which it is used i.e. if it is used with the deliberate intention to cause offence. This has been the basis of prosecutions of fans of other teams to date.
"Our fans adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. They do not use the term to others to cause any offence, they use it a chant amongst themselves.
"The club believes that real anti-Semitic abuse such as hissing to simulate the noise of gas chambers is the real evil and the real offence. We believe this is the area that requires a determined and concerted effort from all parties and where we seek greater support to eradicate."

Spurs

 

[1882]

OK, fuck this I've had enough.... get me Wiki on the line....

Yid
From Wikipedia;
The word Yid (/ˈjiːd/; Yiddish: ייִד)[clarification needed] is a slang Jewish ethnonym. Its usage may be controversial in modernEnglish language. *It is not usually considered offensive when pronounced /ˈjiːd/ (rhyming with deed), the way Yiddish speakers say it, though some may deem the word offensive nonetheless.

Etymology
A page from Elia Levita's Yiddish-Hebrew-Latin-German dictionary (16th century) contains a list of nations, including an entry for Jew: Hebrew:יְהוּדִי‎ Yiddish: יוּד German: Iud Latin: Iudaeus
The term Yid has its origins in the Middle High German word Jüde (the contemporary German word is Jude).

Leo Rosten provides the following etymology:
From the German: Jude: 'Jew.' And 'Jude' is a truncated form of Yehuda, which was the name given to the Jewish Commonwealth in the period of the Second Temple. That name, in turn, was derived from the name of one of Jacob's sons, Yehuda (Judah, in English), whose descendants constituted one of the tribes of Israel and who settled in that portion of Canaan from Jerusalem south to Kadesh-Barnea (50 miles south of Beersheba) and from Jerichowestwards to the Mediterranean.[2]

History
The earliest mention of the word Yid in print was in The Slang Dictionary published by John Camden Hotten in 1874. Hotten noted that "The Jews use these terms very frequently."[1]
After World War II, most examples of the word Yid are found in the writing of Jewish authors. These occurrences are usually either attempts to accurately portray antisemitic speech, or self-deprecating Jewish humor. In his 1968 bestsellerThe Joys of Yiddish, Leo Rosten offers a number of anecdotes from the "Borscht Belt" to illustrate such usage.[1]

Usage in Yiddish
In Yiddish, the word "Yid" Yiddish: ייד is neutral or even complimentary, and in Ashkenazi Yiddish-speaking circles it is frequently used to mean simply "fellow," "chap," "buddy," "mate," etc., with no expressed emphasis on Jewishness (although this may be implied by the intra-Jewish context). Plural is יידן [jidn].

In Yiddish, a polite way to address a fellow Jew whose name one does not know is Reb Yid, meaning "Sir." The Yiddish words yidish or yiddisher (from Middle High German jüdisch) is an adjective derived from the noun Yid, and thus means "Jewish".

Someone show it to the FA and put an end to this!
The only reason they've decided to try and ban it, is 'cos Anti-Semites and Nazis (and latterly Chelsea/West Ham fans) MADE it derogatory... the word was NOT, repeat NOT deemed offensive until THAT LOT stole it, abused it, and spat it out for the rest of us to clean up and deal with... that's why people who are offended by it, are offended by it! It's the modern mis-use of the word that has undone hundreds of years of historical usage!

...and THAT is why Tottenham's fans should be applauded for attempting to re-instate the word as a term of pride, and endearment... not told by some ignorant prick at the FA that we'll be turfed out of the ground for daring to try and do something positive about it, just 'cos David Baddeil (who, if he really knew his history, should know better) told him to!

The other compromise, is simply to shout out "Yeed Army" instead, 'cos that's how the Yiddishers say it!

 

[ChickenTonight]

The FA are just laying the ground work for the 9 point deduction at the end of the season that takes us from 3rd to 5th.
Cunts.

 

[bensonrecon]

listen here

http://talksport.com/football/baddiel-backs-fa-stance-anti-semitic-term-13091259798?

Sorry this may be a long post listening and commenting on bits as they come up

"The reason you're calling it the Y word is because me and my brother Ivor made a film called "The Y Word" "

So I'm not even 1 minute in and he's already taking ownership and making it about him before even addressing the issue being raised. I get the feeling I'm going to be fuming by the time I hit 13 minutes.

some bollocks about stats and then the usual y word encourages the abuse schtick

Firstly I was never asked by Baddiel or anyone if I am Jewish. I'd imagine no one else here was either so he can shove his "95% of Spurs fans aren't Jewish" shit straight back up where he talks from.

Oh the next is a fucking DOOZY

"I understand them saying they use it as a defense mechanism." Some comment referring to knowing why it started and then "But we've moved on from then"

We've moved on? If we had moved on you wouldn't have heard anti semitic abuse in a game between Chelsea and Villa you utter ringpiece! If we'd "moved on" there wouldn't be a need for films about it, there wouldn't be statements from the FA, Spurs and THST you complete tit.

We've raised awareness and it's used less at Chelsea since it was shown

Really? I guess that's why they've moved on to "Anton Ferdinand you know what you are" chants then. Oh and "used less" isn't solving the issue is it? His club tolerates racism on and off the pitch. He admits himself that the stewards did nothing....well how about getting your filthy shitty club to address the issue in the stands and then you won't hear any anti semitic abuse in the ground at all.

It's apparently not about us and then he states that he used to dread Spurs v Chelsea because of how our fans identifying themselves as Y word and Y word army would cause songs about Auschwitz

Thought it wasn't about Spurs fans?


TL DR - Baddiel is doing the same deflecting bullshit he did last year

 

[bensonrecon]

My solitary tweet directed at Baddiel


Result? Blocked. He'll always cherry pick his moral standing to best suit his argument and that is why I have little time for anything he has to say. If you are going to champion a crusade against "the Y word" then you need to be able to be held accountable for things you have done to raise attention to Spurs' "Jewishness"

Until he does that he can fuck right off

 

[Ph0n1k]

Hello all, im new here, an this is my first post.

This is Simon Sharmas piece from the FT today after this tweet on the 15th:

After listening to David Baddiel on Talk Sports about antisemitic chants at Stamford Bridge I've changed my mind about the "Yids" problem..

Good night Yids!” tweets the cheery Talking THFC Spurs blogger, managing to sound both endearing and sinister, like a Cossack tucking you in before the rough stuff starts. I should take offence; God knows I’m good at that. I am still trying to work up a lather of indignation to support a move by the Football Association – endorsed by the chairman of the Professional Footballers’ Association as well as The Board of Deputies of British Jews – to prosecute Tottenham Hotspur fans who chant “we’re the Yid Army!” from the stands at White Hart Lane, giving voice to the team’s old association with north London’s Jews.

There is no doubt that, in some places and at some times, the Y-word is as vilely racist as the N-word – even when embraced by those who sing it. I remember seeing it in Mosleyite daubings on walls in London and Essex. But for this life-long Spurs supporter – a Yiddisher Yid who sees the popular Yiddish-Hasidic newspaper Der Yid on sale every week in Brooklyn – it is a bit of a struggle to get incensed.

I sympathise with the rage of author and comedian David Baddiel, when as a Jewish Chelsea supporter he has to endure merry cries of “Death to the Jews, f*** the Jews” every time Spurs play his team. But perhaps that is a problem for Chelsea and other clubs that tolerate supporters sounding off like they are at a Nazi rally. Prosecuting Spurs fans for calling themselves Yids seems to criminalise the targets of hate speech rather than the perpetrators. And they, believe me, are out there in toxic force on the web, where neo-Nazi sites fall about laughing at the joke that Spurs must have 6m fans.

Of course, not all London Jews are Spurs fans and still less are all Spurs fans Jews. But the connection is not entirely spurious either. The reason my dad passed on the allegiance to me was because the synagogue he helped establish was near White Hart Lane. On my seventh birthday in 1952 he gave me a postcard with the autographs of the team that had won the league the year before. I can still recite those names – Ditchburn and Ramsey, Nicholson and Duquemin, Medley, Bennett and Burgess – like a litany.

Later, in Golders Green, a few miles to the west, it had to be love at a distance since Shabbat observance stopped us going to the games, then played only on Saturdays. But when the rabbi started his sermon we would bolt for the doors to chew over the prospects for the afternoon.

Then came Bill Nicholson’s magic team – Blanchflower, Mackay, Bobby Smith and the rest – not just winning the double in 1961 but doing so with an intelligent elegance that redefined the game just as the pre-Munich crash Manchester United had done under Matt Busby in the 1950s. It was the English game at its most thrilling: short, sharp passing; sudden bursts of acceleration; John “the Ghost” White intuitively moving into spaces he had no right to find, a will-o’-the-wisp in baggy shorts until his career and his life were struck down by a bolt of lightning.

In the years that followed, Busby’s United and the Ajax of Rinus Michels and Johan Cruyff also mastered that degree of lethal grace. And it was in Amsterdam in the 1970s that the ugliness started to throw a shadow over Ajax’s brilliance. Into the city with a traumatic Holocaust history – where Anne Frank had been hidden but also betrayed, and which had lost 80 per cent of its Jews to the death camps – came Feyenoord supporters from Rotterdam, swastikas tattooed on their arms.

Its a commonplace now to say it does not matter who started the aggravation but it seems to me that it does. For Ajax, long associated with a Jewish population in much the same way as Spurs, the waving of Israeli flags and the singing of “Hava Nagila” were a response to the Rotterdam swastikas, not the cause. The escalating spectacle of rival chants, recently refined by other sides into “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas”, along with the hissing that has piped its way to English grounds, grew distressing to the few Dutch Holocaust survivors and their families.

The true horror was the emptying out of historical meaning, the trivialisation of genocide into Holokitsch. Is that not the real problem? Historical ignorance of the doltish kind that for many years allowed the Cleveland Indians baseball team to adopt the grotesque caricature of big-nosed “Chief Wahoo” as their mascot. Or, even more offensively, the tomahawk chop of Atlanta Braves fans: comic-book editions of histories of oppression and extermination.

With the light tribal comedy of team solidarity comes a waiver from historical understanding. But words, chants, signs and gestures can never cut loose from the drag weight of the past. The right response to the Yid Army at Spurs and the Jew-baiters among the Chelsea fans at Stamford Bridge is not prosecution but (and I know this will be seen as another case of professorial optimism) to educate them into understanding what it is they are actually yelling; whose bones they stand on when they jeer and cheer.

Perhaps, rather than have a platoon of chant cops patrolling the stands, we could flash up on the screens a photograph of a chimney, a train and Arbeit Macht Frei before the team announcements. That would shut them up.

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

We dont need no education
We dont need no thought control
Hey Baddiel -
Leave us YIDS alone...........

 

[1882]

I'm a fan of "we're not the racists, we're proud to be Yids", to the same generic tune as every other song at the moment. Surely, surely you couldn't be arrested for using Yid in that context? SURELY?

"We're proud to be Jews, we're proud to be Jews, you stupid bastards, you ain't got a clue"

"Gimme a Y...." (Why-eye-eye)
"I.... " (Ey-eye-eye...)
"D...." (Dee-eee-eeee)
"...whatchoo got?"
"We can't spell-we can't spell-we can't spell-we can't spell"

...just 3 little letters... let the Police do the spelling, and fucking arrest themselves when they've done it!

 

[SchmoodSpur2013]

I have no care for debate on this issue. Because it's futile. I, and many others, will never stop singing 'Yid Army' or 'Yiddo'. If that offends the minority, they'll have to deal with it I'm afraid. I'm not stopping saying something that is entirely intended as a form of brotherhood and identity because someone chooses to be offended.

Fuck David Baddiel and anyone who buys into his complete bullshit.

 

[bensonrecon]

The double standards from the FA are staggering.

Moving to ban a word as they don't know who is using it in a derogatory fashion despite it coming loud and clear from one set of fans followed by the word "army" as a badge of honour, yet deem it ok to allow other fanbases to bang on about Hitler, gassing Jews, Auschwitz etc without punishment and even commend the clubs involved for their action when they ban a solitary person.

I guess badges of honour are confusing but chanting about killing people from an ethnic group is just "bants"

 

[S.L.R]

Is there some sort of running "I don't know how to quote" gag in this thread? [/quote]