"Yid" chanting...

[1882]

no swearing - no shouting?

If one can't manage a cursestorm that also manages to avoid being racist, homophobic, and misogynist, then one is perhaps not creative enough to have earned the privilege of swearing.

phuck you, I'm dyslexic!

Serously though folks... the fact that one of the reasons the Drum was banned was 'cos it incited the word Yid to be sung at WHL conveniently ignores the fact that the word is STILL regularly used at games, with or without the drum!

Besides, there's plenty worse been sung than 'Yid' this season ...oh, talking of which, anyone else explain this to me; I heard the Adebayor song (yes, the original one, THAT one) being sung at The Green Man on Sunday... was this some weird form of high-brow irony, or was the guy singing it so pissed he'd momentarily forgot Ade now plays for us... anyone else hear it/join in???

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Besides, there's plenty worse been sung than 'Yid' this season ...oh, talking of which, anyone else explain this to me; I heard the Adebayor song (yes, the original one, THAT one) being sung at The Green Man on Sunday... was this some weird form of high-brow irony, or was the guy singing it so pissed he'd momentarily forgot Ade now plays for us... anyone else hear it/join in???

Is nigger worse than paki?

 

[1882]

Besides, there's plenty worse been sung than 'Yid' this season ...oh, talking of which, anyone else explain this to me; I heard the Adebayor song (yes, the original one, THAT one) being sung at The Green Man on Sunday... was this some weird form of high-brow irony, or was the guy singing it so pissed he'd momentarily forgot Ade now plays for us... anyone else hear it/join in???

Is n*gger worse than p*ki?

Only in scrabble! (8 points, as opposed to 10... oh yeah, I checked!)

 

[tehTrunk]

no swearing - no shouting?

If one can't manage a cursestorm that also manages to avoid being racist, homophobic, and misogynist, then one is perhaps not creative enough to have earned the privilege of swearing.

I love this man.

 

[tehTrunk]

Besides, there's plenty worse been sung than 'Yid' this season ...oh, talking of which, anyone else explain this to me; I heard the Adebayor song (yes, the original one, THAT one) being sung at The Green Man on Sunday... was this some weird form of high-brow irony, or was the guy singing it so pissed he'd momentarily forgot Ade now plays for us... anyone else hear it/join in???

Is n*gger worse than p*ki?

Is 'coon' worse than 'nigger'?

'Towel head' than 'paki'?

'kike' than 'yid'?

 

[Blanchflower]

no swearing - no shouting?

If one can't manage a cursestorm that also manages to avoid being racist, homophobic, and misogynist, then one is perhaps not creative enough to have earned the privilege of swearing.

I love this man.

Gay!

 

[HyNdZee]

Anything can be claimed to be offensive. I'm not denying that the word Yid is offensive, but I think "...and if you are an ars*nal fan surrender or you'll die" to a loyalist tune about murdering Catholics carries a bit more punch and I have no problem singing that.

Next they'll start banning drums and making you sit down... oh wait.

I do get some of the point and I don't like chanting Yids every time we play as I don't see a need for it against a team that has no idea what we are on about. But teams like Liverpool, Chelsea, West Ham, Woolwich, even Villa start up the hissing "banter".

I don't think that offensiveness aimed our way will be wiped out because we stop chanting the Y-word. They probably find the word Tottenham offensive, or cheering when a goal goes in offensive. So I don't give a shit if anyone is offended by it, I'd be happy to explain why we do it. If they still can't understand then, frankly, they offend me and I want them banned.

Here's a question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'Yids' to anyone without an inkling of the link to Tottenham or the argument that it's about 'reclaiming' the word, look like?

Life doesn't exist in a tiny bubble in N17. The rules of what are or aren't racist or offensive words aren't free to be defined within White Hart Lane by a predominantly non-Jewish supporter base.

The world in which the stadium/club/game exists, considers the term 'Yid' to be wrong.

Don't think there is much wiggle room when you consider it in that way.

Here's a counter-question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'anything' to anyone look like?

You don't need the word Yid for it to be offensive. Ask Charlton youth fans.

As for "rules" of what are or aren't racist or offensive words, I'd actually prefer if there weren't any and I endorse free speech. I don't think imposing laws over thoughts and words achieves anything. You can be sent to jail for trolling on Twitter and yet let off for physically assaulting someone based on their race just because more people complained and were offended by the former and the courts wanna make an example of how they aren't racist.

I don't need John Terry's FC to give me a lesson on morality with a short one-sided video. They are all distraction pieces anyway.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Z_LO2ckS8[/youtube]

 

[tehTrunk]

Gay!

Homophobe

 

[Kalyl]

Well I am a Jew and I reffer to us 'Spurs' as the Yids, but if we were to drop the name I'd be fine with it as long as we got another one syllable name

Have you ever discussed the term with your family?

I think I'm perhaps sensitive to it for a number of reasons. Firstly, I am old enough that my grandparents were of wartime age and my grandfather's family left Eastern Europe just before the age of Nazism. However, many extended family members remained behind and ended up in the concentration camps, so I don't take any ethic profiling easily. Plus, I am actually, some would say, only half Jewish. I am Jewish on my maternal side. As you know, if the blood runs through the mother's side than that makes you fully Jewish, irrespective of your father. My father is of Scottish Christian origin. It was actually this mixed marriage that caused offensive names to be said towards each side of the family, which was not pleasant. I do not often refer to myself as a Jew because I do not practice the faith itself (as I am an agnostic) but racially I am.

In addition to this, with some irony, my most recent long term relationship was to an Iranian (non-practicing) muslim. Plus, after 15 years in immigration law I have seen many different types of people and many different racial mixes.

So, you see, the potential impact of any sorts of racial slurs or profiling is very, very real to me. I take it very seriously. In the modern age there is no place for it. Making a racial slur that still causes offence socially acceptable is the first step towards segregation IMO. We need to move beyond that and all live together as human beings, not seperated and degraded groups.

Well a lot of my family did end up in the concentration camps, though my grandfather escaped as he was part of the Austrian Army 'in exile' so I understand that a large part of my ancestry went up in smoke unfortunately. I also do not like the idea that we are all segregated, it makes irrational sense that we stay with those of similar origins of ourselves so I am against racial slurs but when I am on the end of any racism I have never been referred to as a 'Yid' just a Jew, so I have actually only heard the expression Yid=in terms of Spurs supporters, or when one is referring to the language Yiddish.

I am a practicing Jew fyi but I don't call my self Jew other than in the context of religion, I don't believe that it should be or at least in my sense an ethnicity, to that I call myself English.

Unfortunatley my father is a gooner, he doesn't quite understand that by living in North London and by that I mean North of the river that the team to support is Spurs so when I talk to him about football it is either in the giving of banter or to talk about how Chelsea and Man United are cunts.[/quote]
So despite your background your judgment for whether or not it is offensive is down to whether or not you have been called a yid? Isn't that a little, well, um, self-centred? Surely the measure of it must be whether or not sections of the Jewish communtiy are offended? Do you consider the fact that I am uncomfortable with it unjustified?

Oh, and if you are generationally Jewish then it is as much as race as a faith. We are, after all, ethnically descended from the Israelites and other ethnic tribes around the Middle East, are we not?[/quote]

My post starts this makes you middle eastern of "race" not jewish. We are all generationally some form of faith, this does not make it a race. only reason jews point out the opposite is because their neighbours are christian or muslim. I myself am generationally christian, but this does neither make me christian of faith nor race. In terms of race I'm counted as of nordic descent, a viking, although I prefer the term human, as that's what we all are.
to clarify though, I'm not attacking you or disputing the fact that the term yid is in the larger scale an offensive word. it clearly became that some time in the last century and we as the lilywhite army should refrain from using it as causes offense and harm to millions when directed at them.

 

[pallmallpunch]

Although the issue that makes this unique is if to be Jewish is actually to be of a certain race, or just a certain belief system.

i.e. can one be racist against a muslim?

Think this is the key thing to understand. Being Jewish has an element of family tradition in it, just as being Catholic, Muslim, etc. but it is also a personal choice. I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself such anymore, so if I hear Rangers fans singing "Fuck the Pope" I don't really feel much resentment. Judaism is not a race, a skin color, or nationality - its a religion. One mistake the Nazis made was assuming the Jewish people were one specific nation and ethnic background and going on with their theory of superiority from there.

Anti-semitism then, is the resentment or oppression of people who are either Jewish or come from a family with a tradition of following Judaism. Which kind of makes it like exaggerated racism, it encompasses both hatred for the religion and for people who's family might have once followed that religion. Ridiculous.

The "yid" thing is interesting to me as an American because I've never heard that word in any other context than Spurs fans referring to themselves. I'll also throw in my opinion, even though its an offensive word its nowhere near the category of the N word. That may be my American experience speaking, but the N word is of 400+ years of slavery, death, murder, and oppression. If the SS used the term Yid maybe it'd come close but I'm pretty sure they didn't.

 

[tehTrunk]

Although the issue that makes this unique is if to be Jewish is actually to be of a certain race, or just a certain belief system.

i.e. can one be racist against a muslim?

Think this is the key thing to understand. Being Jewish has an element of family tradition in it, just as being Catholic, Muslim, etc. but it is also a personal choice. I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself such anymore, so if I hear Rangers fans singing "Fuck the Pope" I don't really feel much resentment. Judaism is not a race, a skin color, or nationality - its a religion. One mistake the Nazis made was assuming the Jewish people were one specific nation and ethnic background and going on with their theory of superiority from there.

Anti-semitism then, is the resentment or oppression of people who are either Jewish or come from a family with a tradition of following Judaism. Which kind of makes it like exaggerated racism, it encompasses both hatred for the religion and for people who's family might have once followed that religion. Ridiculous.

The "yid" thing is interesting to me as an American because I've never heard that word in any other context than Spurs fans referring to themselves. I'll also throw in my opinion, even though its an offensive word its nowhere near the category of the N word. That may be my American experience speaking, but the N word is of 400+ years of slavery, death, murder, and oppression. If the SS used the term Yid maybe it'd come close but I'm pretty sure they didn't.

Not sure that this is strictly true.

 

[tehTrunk]

Here's a counter-question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'anything' to anyone look like?

You don't need the word Yid for it to be offensive. Ask Charlton youth fans.

As for "rules" of what are or aren't racist or offensive words, I'd actually prefer if there weren't any and I endorse free speech. I don't think imposing laws over thoughts and words achieves anything. You can be sent to jail for trolling on Twitter and yet let off for physically assaulting someone based on their race just because more people complained and were offended by the former and the courts wanna make an example of how they aren't racist.

I don't need John Terry's FC to give me a lesson on morality with a short one-sided video. They are all distraction pieces anyway.

Everyone has a right to free speech of course, but that's not the issue.

I reserve my right to call someone a 'n*gger' should I choose to, but then I respect the right of that individual to not have to face such abuse thus don't use it.

Having the right to use a word, and using a word are two very different things my friend.

With regard to the shaven headed gentlemen, looking like a lout and looking like a racist lout are again two very different things.

 

[Kalyl]

Although the issue that makes this unique is if to be Jewish is actually to be of a certain race, or just a certain belief system.

i.e. can one be racist against a muslim?

Think this is the key thing to understand. Being Jewish has an element of family tradition in it, just as being Catholic, Muslim, etc. but it is also a personal choice. I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself such anymore, so if I hear Rangers fans singing "Fuck the Pope" I don't really feel much resentment. Judaism is not a race, a skin color, or nationality - its a religion. One mistake the Nazis made was assuming the Jewish people were one specific nation and ethnic background and going on with their theory of superiority from there.

Anti-semitism then, is the resentment or oppression of people who are either Jewish or come from a family with a tradition of following Judaism. Which kind of makes it like exaggerated racism, it encompasses both hatred for the religion and for people who's family might have once followed that religion. Ridiculous.

The "yid" thing is interesting to me as an American because I've never heard that word in any other context than Spurs fans referring to themselves. I'll also throw in my opinion, even though its an offensive word its nowhere near the category of the N word. That may be my American experience speaking, but the N word is of 400+ years of slavery, death, murder, and oppression. If the SS used the term Yid maybe it'd come close but I'm pretty sure they didn't.

Not sure that this is strictly true.

following a faith is always a personal decision you can always stop praciticing it, however, it is too often forced upon kids from such an early age that it's more the form of indoctrination than anything else. Which then strips much of the personal choice away as people can be faced with the painful and unnessecary prospect of choosing between their family and friends and their personal beliefs.

 

[pallmallpunch]

Although the issue that makes this unique is if to be Jewish is actually to be of a certain race, or just a certain belief system.

i.e. can one be racist against a muslim?

Think this is the key thing to understand. Being Jewish has an element of family tradition in it, just as being Catholic, Muslim, etc. but it is also a personal choice. I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself such anymore, so if I hear Rangers fans singing "Fuck the Pope" I don't really feel much resentment. Judaism is not a race, a skin color, or nationality - its a religion. One mistake the Nazis made was assuming the Jewish people were one specific nation and ethnic background and going on with their theory of superiority from there.

Anti-semitism then, is the resentment or oppression of people who are either Jewish or come from a family with a tradition of following Judaism. Which kind of makes it like exaggerated racism, it encompasses both hatred for the religion and for people who's family might have once followed that religion. Ridiculous.

The "yid" thing is interesting to me as an American because I've never heard that word in any other context than Spurs fans referring to themselves. I'll also throw in my opinion, even though its an offensive word its nowhere near the category of the N word. That may be my American experience speaking, but the N word is of 400+ years of slavery, death, murder, and oppression. If the SS used the term Yid maybe it'd come close but I'm pretty sure they didn't.

Not sure that this is strictly true.

Maybe at one time it wasn't, but there are Jewish people in almost every country in the world, of every ethnic background and color. The original Israelites' ancestors might still be kicking around somewhere, but its fairly easy to convert to Judaism so nowadays its a religion like any other. A friend of the family is Korean-American and she converted to Judaism in order to marry her now husband, who is of Russian descent.

Back on topic, I'm kind of on the fence about the word itself. What are we gonna call players like Rafa without it? Spurs? Oh, Rafa, he's such a Spur!

 

[Éperons]

What are we gonna call players like Rafa without it? Spurs? Oh, Rafa, he's such a Spur!

'Lily'. I love it. It's hilarious in its lack of toughness.

 

[tehTrunk]

So do you think those rounded up based on stereotypical, physical traits attributed to race, who were then shipped off to death camps made a 'personal choice' ?

I know it sounds dramatic, but I find your point somewhat naive.

 

[Kalyl]

So do you think those rounded up based on stereotypical, physical traits attributed to race, who were then shipped off to death camps made a 'personal choice' ?

I know it sounds dramatic, but I find your point somewhat naive.

I find your point there lacking, I never said anything about what the nazis did or didn't do or how they went about their horrible manslaughter and imprisonment, I merely claimed that FOLLOWING and adhering to a faith, is a personal choice. what the nazi's did was target anyone whom they thought they were better than, and this unfortunately extended to jews, yugoslavs and other east-block countries, handicaped and mentally ill individuals.

 

[Freudlyuchenko]

I think I'm perhaps sensitive to it for a number of reasons. Firstly, I am old enough that my grandparents were of wartime age and my grandfather's family left Eastern Europe just before the age of Nazism. However, many extended family members remained behind and ended up in the concentration camps, so I don't take any ethic profiling easily. Plus, I am actually, some would say, only half Jewish. I am Jewish on my maternal side. As you know, if the blood runs through the mother's side than that makes you fully Jewish, irrespective of your father. My father is of Scottish Christian origin. It was actually this mixed marriage that caused offensive names to be said towards each side of the family, which was not pleasant. I do not often refer to myself as a Jew because I do not practice the faith itself (as I am an agnostic) but racially I am.

In addition to this, with some irony, my most recent long term relationship was to an Iranian (non-practicing) muslim. Plus, after 15 years in immigration law I have seen many different types of people and many different racial mixes.

So, you see, the potential impact of any sorts of racial slurs or profiling is very, very real to me. I take it very seriously. In the modern age there is no place for it. Making a racial slur that still causes offence socially acceptable is the first step towards segregation IMO. We need to move beyond that and all live together as human beings, not seperated and degraded groups.

Well a lot of my family did end up in the concentration camps, though my grandfather escaped as he was part of the Austrian Army 'in exile' so I understand that a large part of my ancestry went up in smoke unfortunately. I also do not like the idea that we are all segregated, it makes irrational sense that we stay with those of similar origins of ourselves so I am against racial slurs but when I am on the end of any racism I have never been referred to as a 'Yid' just a Jew, so I have actually only heard the expression Yid=in terms of Spurs supporters, or when one is referring to the language Yiddish.

I am a practicing Jew fyi but I don't call my self Jew other than in the context of religion, I don't believe that it should be or at least in my sense an ethnicity, to that I call myself English.

Unfortunatley my father is a gooner, he doesn't quite understand that by living in North London and by that I mean North of the river that the team to support is Spurs so when I talk to him about football it is either in the giving of banter or to talk about how Chelsea and Man United are cunts.

So despite your background your judgment for whether or not it is offensive is down to whether or not you have been called a yid? Isn't that a little, well, um, self-centred? Surely the measure of it must be whether or not sections of the Jewish communtiy are offended? Do you consider the fact that I am uncomfortable with it unjustified?

Oh, and if you are generationally Jewish then it is as much as race as a faith. We are, after all, ethnically descended from the Israelites and other ethnic tribes around the Middle East, are we not?

In truth it is a little self-centered, but until I heard Ledley and fat man Lampard say that it as offensive know one had ever told me they were offended by it, I had never looked into it and by my understanding (which may be wrong) the Nazis referred to us a Juden, among other things like aliens and sub-humans.

I perceive that I am ethnically from the Middle-East though my family may at one point been converted, I am descended from to many places to classify me under anything other than Eurasian, though mainly European, so I don't feel ethnically Jewish except when I look at my cock (sorry for the fowl language but I can't think of another word to call without sounding like a ponce)

If you are offended then you have every right to be but I am saying that I have never felt offended or knowingly met anyone who is offended by the word until this conversation, perhaps I could ask my rabbi but there are always people who try to make themselves out to be victimised so generally I don't listen unless the plight is proper and they aren't just making a fuss over nothing. (Upon re-reading I am in no way trying to badmouth you, my comment is for the arguments sake.)

 

[tehTrunk]

So do you think those rounded up based on stereotypical, physical traits attributed to race, who were then shipped off to death camps made a 'personal choice' ?

I know it sounds dramatic, but I find your point somewhat naive.

I find your point there lacking, I never said anything about what the nazis did or didn't do or how they went about their horrible manslaughter and imprisonment, I merely claimed that FOLLOWING and adhering to a faith, is a personal choice. what the nazi's did was target anyone whom they thought they were better than, and this unfortunately extended to jews, yugoslavs and other east-block countries, handicaped and mentally ill individuals.

The final solution and subsequent holocaust was predominantly centered around the extermination of Israelite bloodlines from Western Europe.

Other peoples were destroyed on the basis of providing 'clean' gene pools, doesn't make it any less appalling, but to suggest that the Jews were specifically targeted based on a choice they've made is appallingly offensive.

 

[Kris]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?