Jose Mourinho

[Taricco's Tackle]

I see the team were bad in the first half but I presume they had practiced tactics. 4 changes at half time was too much and a bit like friendlies multiple changes make it disjointed and even though Moura, Son & Lamela are used to playing together there seemed no real tactical plan.
I almost picked the same team as Mourinho and cannot therefore blame him for that but perhaps with hindsight Vinny, Bale, Dele & Bergwijn was a gamble as they have never played together.
On the basis Lo Celso was probably subbed either to keep him fresh, because of injury or because of lack of freshness, then he and Dele should have been the only half time changes. 2 more on the hour and keeping the final change back in case of injury.
Vinny played 90 mins last week and I would have given him longer with Son and others.
It almost is that Mourinho wants to hit the headlines with 4 subs at H/t. Had it have worked it would have been all about how he won the match but it didn't.

Agree 4 changes was too many. Bringing off Dele and maybe Bergwijn would have been ample. We were very close to scoring in the first half but those 2 kept fucking up the final ball.

The team basically had to start again secomd half and credit to Antwerp we just couldn't match their intensity

 

[NewZealand_Spur]

Yeah, I saw those comments and I am still confident that was Jose taking a shot at Dele. He has been clear since day one that he didn't like Dele's energy and he has been absent from many squads this year. The same cannot be said about the rest, even Steven.

But either way, I just don't get motivated by managers, bosses and the like that speak this way. It's a complete turnoff and that is why I have such an issue with it.

This is probably why I am making 35k a year, sit on a forum and complain, while these youngins are making millions playing for one of the biggest clubs in England. They can take the criticism, I curl up into a ball and cry.

I think you're alright. You follow Spurs after all.

:dierpochhug:

 

[Taricco's Tackle]

If you look at teams like Bayern München, Liverpool and City. They attack in similar ways, there is a pattern in how transition from defence to attack. How they defend. Where and when they take chances and risk losing the ball and then defend aggressively, because when you win it back in those areas it's easier to create chances. Spurs on the other hand, press hard sometimes, backs of in other, plays through midfield some games and hoofs it in other. Very little movement in possession. It's hard to explain patterns I think. But I'm not seeing clear patterns in how Spurs play. If this is because we always adopt to how the opposition plays or if it's because we lack a "pattern" I don't know. Shit, it's hard to explain.

In pochs heyday for example, we would often work it down the left with short sharp passes before a big booming switch to walker in acres of space.

Defensively we would press and press hard right to the keeper, resulting in a long clearance to the centre halves who would eat it up and we start again.

You are right that any pattern of play is much harder to spot with Mourinho. We switch between low and medium block with regularity and the only attacking pattern seems to be the direct ball into son cutting in off the left in behind. Interestingly, on the Amazon documentary Mourinho often spoke about pressing high but we rarely saw a cogent pressing plan for 90 mins.

 

[Ciro]

If you look at teams like Bayern München, Liverpool and City. They attack in similar ways, there is a pattern in how transition from defence to attack. How they defend. Where and when they take chances and risk losing the ball and then defend aggressively, because when you win it back in those areas it's easier to create chances. Spurs on the other hand, press hard sometimes, backs of in other, plays through midfield some games and hoofs it in other. Very little movement in possession. It's hard to explain patterns I think. But I'm not seeing clear patterns in how Spurs play. If this is because we always adopt to how the opposition plays or if it's because we lack a "pattern" I don't know. Shit, it's hard to explain.

Tell me more about City's defensive patterns, please.

 

[Smogz]

Tell me more about City's defensive patterns, please.

Well maybe not in their defence.

 

[H4SPURS]

In pochs heyday for example, we would often work it down the left with short sharp passes before a big booming switch to walker in acres of space.

Defensively we would press and press hard right to the keeper, resulting in a long clearance to the centre halves who would eat it up and we start again.

You are right that any pattern of play is much harder to spot with Mourinho. We switch between low and medium block with regularity and the only attacking pattern seems to be the direct ball into son cutting in off the left in behind. Interestingly, on the Amazon documentary Mourinho often spoke about pressing high but we rarely saw a cogent pressing plan for 90 mins.

I’m sure there are patterns of play that gets worked on in training with his years of success. However, the one thing you won’t get from Jose is play one way repeatedly. He is going to approach every single opponent differently where he minimizes our weaknesses being exploited and tries to exploit opponents’ weaknesses. So, I don’t think you will see the same thing week in week out with Jose.

It’s hard to understand why players don’t seem to do what the managers/coaches are instructing consistently. I coached for many years but not anywhere near levels that mattered but the most common questions circulating among all coaches have always been “why won’t this player do that every single time? Why can’t this player be more consistent?” We’re dealing with humans and they can only perform to what their physical abilities allow them and most importantly, what their mind allows them. Psychological barriers pose a much bigger hurdle for professional athletes than people realize or give credit for. That’s where managers/coaches make their money with their abilities to shape those mentalities. Sometimes, it takes a bit of time but sometimes they never get there with some of these players. It’s a bit of science and a lot of art. Hence, not always repeatable but the serial winners get it their way more times than not.

 

[Taricco's Tackle]

I’m sure there are patterns of play that gets worked on in training with his years of success. However, the one thing you won’t get from Jose is play one way repeatedly. He is going to approach every single opponent differently where he minimizes our weaknesses being exploited and tries to exploit opponents’ weaknesses. So, I don’t think you will see the same thing week in week out with Jose.

It’s hard to understand why players don’t seem to do what the managers/coaches are instructing consistently. I coached for many years but not anywhere near levels that mattered but the most common questions circulating among all coaches have always been “why won’t this player do that every single time? Why can’t this player be more consistent?” We’re dealing with humans and they can only perform to what their physical abilities allow them and most importantly, what their mind allows them. Psychological barriers pose a much bigger hurdle for professional athletes than people realize or give credit for. That’s where managers/coaches make their money with their abilities to shape those mentalities. Sometimes, it takes a bit of time but sometimes they never get there with some of these players. It’s a bit of science and a lot of art. Hence, not always repeatable but the serial winners get it their way more times than not.

The fact Jose will adapt to the opponent probably explains why sometimes we look totally disjointed. If he gets it wrong or the side cant quite implement his plan on a given day we end up with performances like Everton and Antwerp. When they can we get man utd and that second half against Southampton

 

[H4SPURS]

The fact Jose will adapt to the opponent probably explains why sometimes we occasionally totally disjointed. If he gets it wrong or the side cant quite implement his plan on a given day we end up with performances like Everton and Antqerp. When they can we get man utd and that second half against Southampton

I think if we look back at our performances, we didn’t play well either because we didn’t play with the effort, discipline, and intensity that we needed or made mistakes when we conceded. If I remember correctly, we have always done well when we have put forth the effort, discipline, and intensity. The mistakes killed some of our results. Some of the disjointed or poor performances came down to effort, discipline, and intensity of carrying out the job at hand.

 

[Smogz]

I’m sure there are patterns of play that gets worked on in training with his years of success. However, the one thing you won’t get from Jose is play one way repeatedly. He is going to approach every single opponent differently where he minimizes our weaknesses being exploited and tries to exploit opponents’ weaknesses. So, I don’t think you will see the same thing week in week out with Jose.

It’s hard to understand why players don’t seem to do what the managers/coaches are instructing consistently. I coached for many years but not anywhere near levels that mattered but the most common questions circulating among all coaches have always been “why won’t this player do that every single time? Why can’t this player be more consistent?” We’re dealing with humans and they can only perform to what their physical abilities allow them and most importantly, what their mind allows them. Psychological barriers pose a much bigger hurdle for professional athletes than people realize or give credit for. That’s where managers/coaches make their money with their abilities to shape those mentalities. Sometimes, it takes a bit of time but sometimes they never get there with some of these players. It’s a bit of science and a lot of art. Hence, not always repeatable but the serial winners get it their way more times than not.

It's probably much harder to do what the coach tells you if there is new orders for every game. You always have to think, it doesn't come automatic or as easy as if you follow the same structure every game.

 

[windrepel]

If you look at teams like Bayern München, Liverpool and City. They attack in similar ways, there is a pattern in how transition from defence to attack. How they defend. Where and when they take chances and risk losing the ball and then defend aggressively, because when you win it back in those areas it's easier to create chances. Spurs on the other hand, press hard sometimes, backs of in other, plays through midfield some games and hoofs it in other. Very little movement in possession. It's hard to explain patterns I think. But I'm not seeing clear patterns in how Spurs play. If this is because we always adopt to how the opposition plays or if it's because we lack a "pattern" I don't know. Shit, it's hard to explain.

This is because we always adopt to how the opposition plays. Jose mourinho has always been like that when he set his team up , which is how he won all those trophies..luka modric said ,"as a player you can't say jose hasn't prepared you tactically before a match, he predict exactly what is going to happen on the pitch in detailed manner and told you how you should play"
If Ferguson was the best psychologist in football, Mourinho is the best tactician , all the players just need to listen , him saying he would have liked to change the starting 11 suggest they didn't listen or failed to apply

 

[Smogz]

This is because we always adopt to how the opposition plays. Jose mourinho has always been like that when he set his team up , which is how he won all those trophies..luka modric said ,"as a player you can't say jose hasn't prepared you tactically before a match, he predict exactly what is going to happen on the pitch in detailed manner and told you how you should play"
If Ferguson was the best psychologist in football, Mourinho is the best tactician , all the players just need to listen , him saying he would have liked to change the starting 11 suggest they didn't listen or failed to apply

Yes I'm sure this is why I can't see a pattern. But this also means that the players doesn't train and train and train and infuse the patterns into their spine, muscle memory, I don't know what to call it. They always have to think what to do right now in this game. Or was that last week's game?

No one can argue with Mourinhos success. He also almost always had the best players. Was it because he's so good, or did the players individual greatness save him? I don't know, I'm maybe just not a big Mourinho fan and sees stuff that aren't there, or the other way around, don't see stuff that are there plain to see for those with better eye for football than me.

 

[Airfixx]

Agree 4 changes was too many. Bringing off Dele and maybe Bergwijn would have been ample. We were very close to scoring in the first half but those 2 kept fucking up the final ball.

The team basically had to start again secomd half and credit to Antwerp we just couldn't match their intensity

Broadly, I agree, but.....

Accepting that Gio was predetermined to come off; if one in turn insists that Dele had to come off then immediately we're talking 2 subs and a MF revamp.

Ditto Bale seemed destined for only an hour regardless.

That's 3...... They soon start to mount up....

The only way mass substitutions was then to be avoided was to keep Stevie & Vin on..... Vin I'd have kept on, but Stevie was poor too.

Still wracking my brain as to what I'd have prefered (aside from leaving Vin on), but the sad fact is none of the front 6 were playing well enough to build upon/around with mere minor tweaks.

 

[H4SPURS]

It's probably much harder to do what the coach tells you if there is new orders for every game. You always have to think, it doesn't come automatic or as easy as if you follow the same structure every game.

Depends whether he has the right players. Jose likes to have a team of intelligent players who can carry out the tactical aspects of his plans. As oppose to a bunch of pawns who does the same mindless things over and over again. After all, isn’t the individual brilliance, individual creativity and the unpredictability of football what the world is in love with? If what you see week in and week out are the same plays and progressions of play, football would be a boring thing to watch.

 

[The special ones mai]

This forum is so good after a loss lol its a laugh a minute.

Its been really quiet on the jose hate brigade recently, yet at the first loss they all come out in force!..
The team was unbeaten in 10 games, so clearly jose was doing something right? No? Yet on the first loss the dinosaur word got branded out...jesus!

He hasnt had a proper pre season, hes building his own team, were only 2 points off of top, yes only 2 points! Would of been top if not for the shambles of the Newcastle hand ball.

If it was any other manager, im guessing they would get alot of leeway with the start to the season we had, even probably praise...yet some cant be fair in their assessments and its getting boring now, if were doing completely shit after the hard winter games then yeh get your pitchforks out and your told you so's...not after a 10 game unbeaten run ffs...

End of the day, these players get paid shitloads and live a life of luxury, yet some of you get butthurt because their manager gives them a telling off in public lol im sure deles crying himself to sleep in his million pound house and model gf sucking him off!

 

[skyfarer]

I think "the Original One", Bielsa, is actually the most tactically interesting manager in the league for me - I read this little article about their pressing system and it makes so much sense how they don't seem to tire despite their renown for being an intense pressing side. In reality, pressing is a very detailed system, not just everyone charging at once - they rarely have more than two pressers at a time, and they coordinate their press such that they cut off passing angles and form new ones.

If anyone's interested in more, Leeds United | Marcelo Bielsa | Tactical Analysis has a treasure trove of info. I'm always fascinated by this stuff since I never notice that level of detail in a game but I'm sure that level of drilling is how Leeds are able to have such a fluid attack.

For example, if we thought pulling a player off at halftime was harsh, Bielsa pulled off a player at around the 30' mark at Villa for a 19-year-old who'd never played in the PL before! But the new player was able to slot in easily because they have a set system and style of play, everyone knows their roles and where players will be. But Bielsa has had over two seasons to instill his system, and I think Leeds' academy has also been very good at incorporating his style as well (was reading this little piece on Leeds U23's attacking FBs earlier - I really like how those mini-games force the players to figure out how to build certain attacking plays themselves, rather than being told where to run for instance).

I'm not saying we should play exactly like Leeds and Bielsa has some notoriety with falling out with owners and players too, but I would like to see more of a systematic approach to our play. I can't remember where I heard the quote but I remember Mourinho saying he prefers to drill defense but give players more freedom in attack, let them express themselves. The problem imo is that he had maybe the world's most brilliant no10 at the time in Ozil at Real Madrid, and if you have prime Ozil you probably don't need to be telling him where to run and pass I don't think we have that level of tactical intelligence here outside Kane and Tanguy's instincts, so we need to figure out something more systematic; especially against teams that give us space to counter. You could say in Sissoko/Winks/Moura/Lamela etc we don't have the personnel to play systematic one-touch football, but I don't think they are less bright or technical than Leeds' players.

To be sure I definitely don't think we are completely patternless though. I thought Jose Mourinho – Tottenham Hotspur – Tactical Analysis (2020-21 Edition) touches on what we at least try to do, without necessarily always fulfilling the execution. And multiple past players and assistant coaches have said that Mourinho is insanely detailed in his tactical preparation. I don't know if that's the same thing as coaching a system, but he's certainly not going "just farkin' run about a bit".

(And for cases like Antwerp, where we literally just didn't move even though you could hear someone screaming "faster! faster!" on the sidelines, I think that was an execution problem, I don't think we just showed up with no gameplan. We were second to every loose ball and no team that fails to earn the right to play will get to impose any style.)

 

[windrepel]

I think "the Original One", Bielsa, is actually the most tactically interesting manager in the league for me - I read this little article about their pressing system and it makes so much sense how they don't seem to tire despite their renown for being an intense pressing side. In reality, pressing is a very detailed system, not just everyone charging at once - they rarely have more than two pressers at a time, and they coordinate their press such that they cut off passing angles and form new ones.

If anyone's interested in more, Leeds United | Marcelo Bielsa | Tactical Analysis has a treasure trove of info. I'm always fascinated by this stuff since I never notice that level of detail in a game but I'm sure that level of drilling is how Leeds are able to have such a fluid attack.

For example, if we thought pulling a player off at halftime was harsh, Bielsa pulled off a player at around the 30' mark at Villa for a 19-year-old who'd never played in the PL before! But the new player was able to slot in easily because they have a set system and style of play, everyone knows their roles and where players will be. But Bielsa has had over two seasons to instill his system, and I think Leeds' academy has also been very good at incorporating his style as well (was reading this little piece on Leeds U23's attacking FBs earlier - I really like how those mini-games force the players to figure out how to build certain attacking plays themselves, rather than being told where to run for instance).

I'm not saying we should play exactly like Leeds and Bielsa has some notoriety with falling out with owners and players too, but I would like to see more of a systematic approach to our play. I can't remember where I heard the quote but I remember Mourinho saying he prefers to drill defense but give players more freedom in attack, let them express themselves. The problem imo is that he had maybe the world's most brilliant no10 at the time in Ozil at Real Madrid, and if you have prime Ozil you probably don't need to be telling him where to run and pass I don't think we have that level of tactical intelligence here outside Kane and Tanguy's instincts, so we need to figure out something more systematic; especially against teams that give us space to counter. You could say in Sissoko/Winks/Moura/Lamela etc we don't have the personnel to play systematic one-touch football, but I don't think they are less bright or technical than Leeds' players.

To be sure I definitely don't think we are completely patternless though. I thought Jose Mourinho – Tottenham Hotspur – Tactical Analysis (2020-21 Edition) touches on what we at least try to do, without necessarily always fulfilling the execution. And multiple past players and assistant coaches have said that Mourinho is insanely detailed in his tactical preparation. I don't know if that's the same thing as coaching a system, but he's certainly not going "just farkin' run about a bit".

(And for cases like Antwerp, where we literally just didn't move even though you could hear someone screaming "faster! faster!" on the sidelines, I think that was an execution problem, I don't think we just showed up with no gameplan. We were second to every loose ball and no team that fails to earn the right to play will get to impose any style.)

With all due respect i am not sure why bielsa is being rated so highly despite winning almost nothing in the game and he is 65 years old already. Jose is too underrated instead considering all

 

[windrepel]

That was a lot more ranty and reactive than anything I posted.

It's not about their public persona or ego, it's about getting the best out of them and you don't do that by publicly admonishing people, not in any workplace not just football. Reactive fans may like the binary, black and white, ' they're not trying, call 'em out bollocks ' but people are a lot more complex than that and as I said there are a myriad of reasons for players having bad games. Not trying is rarely one of them.

Jose doesn't do this because it helps him win more, he does this because that's who he is as a person, defensive, self centred and unwilling to take criticism. We all have egos, how we deal with them defines who we are.

Fergie was a winner, had a big ego and dominated his squad with an iron will - but when interviewed he didn't throw his players under the bus and refused to criticize them publicly whilst they were at the club. Behind closed doors he could and would brutalize them in a way Jose doesn't but he dealt with that away from the press. The players respected him as a result and he had longevity as a result. Jose never has and never will.

Jose is ours and I hope we win the lot with him here but I'm not going to defend behaviour that I think is counter intuitive when trying to get the best out of people and thought that way when he was at other clubs. He wins because he's driven and relentless and desperate to win at almost all costs, not because he slags the team off publicly. It's a reaction to criticism, he deflects, I don't even think it's calculated - it's reactive and part of what drives him as a person, the need to prove others wrong.

Btw I never said anyone should be pampered (I think quite the opposite), didn't mention a favourite player (but if you're talking about Alli he's not even in my top 10 in the current squad) and certainly don't think 'winners' have a tendency to slag their players off publicly. Fergie, Klopp, Pep are 3 examples straight off the top of my head.

Well , the manager who hugs , cuddled and kiss all his players are currently sitting at 15th on the table having only 48% winrate over his tenure there having spend almost 300m Trophyless , imagine how toxic this thread would be if that was jose, with every single win they got their fans would said "this is the right man to take us forward" , while with every lost we suffer the reaction would be "mourinho isn't the man to take us forward"

 

[skyfarer]

With all due respect i am not sure why bielsa is being rated so highly despite winning almost nothing in the game and he is 65 years old already. Jose is too underrated instead considering all

Heh, I did say he was a tactically interesting manager to me, not a winning one! He seems to fall out with boards a lot when he doesn't get his way and I'm not sure he can work with "stars" like the kind you have more of at the bigger clubs. But I think like Pep says, his influence on an entire generation of coaches including our own Poch is pretty astounding.

 

[windrepel]

Heh, I did say he was a tactically interesting manager to me, not a winning one! He seems to fall out with boards a lot when he doesn't get his way and I'm not sure he can work with "stars" like the kind you have more of at the bigger clubs. But I think like Pep says, his influence on an entire generation of coaches including our own Poch is pretty astounding.

So not only he is a trophyless manager but also fall out with his board often, still i don't understand the hype, it's very weird to me how football community these days tends to rate trophyless manager over serial winner , like i absolutely don't understand the process of thought for it.

 

[skyfarer]

So not only he is a trophyless manager but also fall out with his board often, still i don't understand the hype, it's very weird to me how football community these days tends to rate trophyless manager over serial winner , like i absolutely don't understand the process of thought for it.

It depends on what you mean by "rate". Would I have him here at my club? Leeds fans are delighted with him, but I'm not sure (I don't know so much about his history tbh, so I'd hesitate to form an opinion). But I think he has a lot of insight into the game and he is credited by serial-winning managers as a genius. So maybe I'd like to have him as an advisor or a teacher but not a manager, because a manager needs to do a lot more than coaching? (Or at least I'm happy to have his students... I was personally quite happy with Poch even though he'd never won anything either, before it all went awry in the later years.)

I'll jump off Bielsa and Leeds though to hand this thread back to its namesake