Jose Mourinho

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Right you fuckers who think it's our defence that's at fault! Read this piece, written by one of the most respected tactical writers in the game. He obviously communicates it far more eloquently than I've been trying to over in the Sanchez thread. But please do yourselves a favour and read it and understand our defensive issues are a consequence of a TEAM failing and not a DEFENDERS ONLY one.



Many years ago, there was a lively post-match debate on Sky Sports between Graeme Souness and Gordon Strachan.

The subject was the optimum way to defend corners, because the two Scots had just watched a team using zonal marking concede from a set piece.

Strachan was a proponent of defending zonally at corners, pointing to statistics about its increased effectiveness and explaining that it prevented attacking block-offs. Souness insisted that man-marking was a better approach. His main point, which he repeated on multiple occasions, was that “zonal marking lets players off the hook”.

Souness, whether or not he realised it, was effectively saying that his tactical preference stemmed from wanting to pin the blame for conceding on a player. If a zonal marking approach fails, the system — and therefore the manager who implements it — is considered culpable. But in a man-marking system, if someone gets outjumped by an opponent, you can point the finger directly at them.

And therefore what appeared a tactical debate was, in actual fact, nothing of the sort. It was really a debate about man-management, about the relationship between players and their boss, about the extent to which a manager must carry the can for their failings on the pitch. Strachan focused upon which was best for the team. Souness was about which was best for him.

This decade-old debate came to mind this week, in light of Jose Mourinho’s reaction to Tottenham Hotspur drawing at Newcastle United from 2-1 up with six minutes left, while permitting their highest single-game xG figure of the Premier League season so far. BBC reporter Juliette Ferrington asked Mourinho why his side keep on relinquishing leads, whereas previously his sides were renowned for hanging onto them. “Same coach, different players,” Mourinho responded.

Not for the first time, a revealing answer stemmed from a question framed in light of his previous successes — Mourinho has a habit of giving more detailed answers to questions that begin with things like “Jose, as someone who has won it all…”

It would be quite possible, though, for his players to respond in kind.

To varying extents, the likes of Toby Alderweireld, Eric Dier and Davinson Sanchez have previously played in a stern Spurs defence under Mauricio Pochettino. That was an entirely different style of defending, based around pressure in advanced positions and a high line.

When that defensive approach got breached, we tended to talk about the high line rather than the individuals.

It’s the same, for example, for Hansi Flick’s Bayern Munich, who used an extraordinarily high line en route to European Cup success last year. It was impossible to watch them defend against Barcelona in the last eight or final opponents Paris Saint-Germain without almost jumping out of your seat, such was the bravery of their high line. Had they conceded to PSG from a through-ball and a run in behind, Flick would have been blamed. But he would probably have accepted responsibility, for he knows that a high-risk, high-reward strategy is best for his side.

Mourinho once used that approach. Watch his triumphant Porto side throughout the Champions League knockout phase in 2003-04 and you’ll be surprised by how high his defence position themselves. These days, his defences sit deeper, dropping back to their own penalty box quickly, particularly if Tottenham have gone ahead. On multiple occasions this season, that approach has cost them. While Mourinho would explain it forms part of his attacking strategy, attempting to draw the opposition forward and give Spurs space to counter-attack into, rarely have his side constructed regular breaks to justify their deep positioning.

The thing with defending deep is that you’re asking your defenders to do more traditional defensive tasks. There are more aerial challenges inside your box, more situations where you have to stick tight to a player who is in a goalscoring position, more danger to anticipate and more blocks to be made. It also means that it’s more possible to concede goals that are not, in isolation, attributable to managerial strategy.

When Tottenham lost 2-1 away to Liverpool in December, for example, the goals came from a crazy deflection, and then a late set-piece concession (from, of course, man-to-man marking).

The first goal was unfortunate, but if you allow the opposition 76 per cent of the possession and 17 shots to your eight, there’s more chance of one finding its way into the net almost accidentally. Similarly, if you allow that much pressure, you concede more corners than you win (seven to four in this case), and there’s more chance of one leading to a goal. These things add up over time.

It is sometimes said that Mourinho is antiquated tactically; that his inability to win trophies recently is because he hasn’t adjusted strategically. There’s clearly an element of truth to that, in comparison to Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola, but his primary problem is surely his inability to command the respect of players over a sustained period of time, evidenced by sudden drop-offs in his pre-Tottenham stints with Chelsea and Manchester United.

It came as little surprise that, after Mourinho responded to Sunday’s 2-2 on Tyneside by blaming his players, some of them objected. It’s difficult to imagine many other current managers responding similarly.

But that’s logical if Mourinho’s tactical approach is also out of step with that of his contemporaries. The tactical development of football, particularly over the last couple of decades, is about universality, about particular tasks being done collectively. Modern sides press aggressively from the front and play out from the back, meaning defensive play starts with your attackers and attacking play starts in defence. Every concept is a task for the entire side.

Mourinho’s approach is more old-school. He works less than other contemporary managers on prepared attacking possession routines, preferring to allow playmakers to find solutions themselves. In a world of false nines, Mourinho has always liked true strikers such as Didier Drogba, Diego Milito and Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He also likes proper defenders that belong in their own box: John Terry, Lucio, Ricardo Carvalho.

With that approach, it’s more viable to pin the blame on somebody when things go wrong. If a goal is conceded, a defender is more obviously at fault than the system. And this comes back to that Strachan-Souness debate, which demonstrated that tactical decision-making and man-management are not entirely separate concepts.

Mourinho’s reputation has never been lower, which is why he is determined to shift culpability onto his players and protect himself.

It’s entirely possible that his tactical decision-making is also geared towards absolving himself of blame.

Now, he’s fighting to prove he deserves to be in charge of Tottenham, rather than in his previous role: in a Sky Sports studio, nodding along with Souness.

No way I said it this eloquently but I have said much of this on multiple occasions.

1. That he clearly does little attack coaching.

2. That asking his back four to face so many defensive actions over 90 mins required too much of their limited ability( Dier and Sanchez are no Lucio/Terry

3. That the blame culture puts the individual over the collective.

Its horribly obvious and its good to read it so brilliantly articulated.
 
I only really watch the Premier League but decided to pop on the PSG Bayern match this evening. Seeing Poch, Perez, and the rest of the coaching staff on the PSG bench it still really stirs up some strange emotions in me.
 
From the Athletic.
Mourinho's tactics look like they're designed to absolve him of blame and put pressure on Tottenham players

Many years ago, there was a lively post-match debate on Sky Sports between Graeme Souness and Gordon Strachan.

The subject was the optimum way to defend corners, because the two Scots had just watched a team using zonal marking concede from a set piece.

Strachan was a proponent of defending zonally at corners, pointing to statistics about its increased effectiveness and explaining that it prevented attacking block-offs. Souness insisted that man-marking was a better approach. His main point, which he repeated on multiple occasions, was that “zonal marking lets players off the hook”.

Souness, whether or not he realised it, was effectively saying that his tactical preference stemmed from wanting to pin the blame for conceding on a player. If a zonal marking approach fails, the system — and therefore the manager who implements it — is considered culpable. But in a man-marking system, if someone gets outjumped by an opponent, you can point the finger directly at them.

And therefore what appeared a tactical debate was, in actual fact, nothing of the sort. It was really a debate about man-management, about the relationship between players and their boss, about the extent to which a manager must carry the can for their failings on the pitch. Strachan focused upon which was best for the team. Souness was about which was best for him.

This decade-old debate came to mind this week, in light of Jose Mourinho’s reaction to Tottenham Hotspur drawing at Newcastle United from 2-1 up with six minutes left, while permitting their highest single-game xG figure of the Premier League season so far. BBC reporter Juliette Ferrington asked Mourinho why his side keep on relinquishing leads, whereas previously his sides were renowned for hanging onto them. “Same coach, different players"

Not for the first time, a revealing answer stemmed from a question framed in light of his previous successes — Mourinho has a habit of giving more detailed answers to questions that begin with things like “Jose, as someone who has won it all…”

It would be quite possible, though, for his players to respond in kind.

To varying extents, the likes of Toby Alderweireld, Eric Dier and Davinson Sanchez have previously played in a stern Spurs defence under Mauricio Pochettino. That was an entirely different style of defending, based around pressure in advanced positions and a high line.

When that defensive approach got breached, we tended to talk about the high line rather than the individuals.

It’s the same, for example, for Hansi Flick’s Bayern Munich, who used an extraordinarily high line en route to European Cup success last year. It was impossible to watch them defend against Barcelona in the last eight or final opponents Paris Saint-Germain without almost jumping out of your seat, such was the bravery of their high line. Had they conceded to PSG from a through-ball and a run in behind, Flick would have been blamed. But he would probably have accepted responsibility, for he knows that a high-risk, high-reward strategy is best for his side.

Mourinho once used that approach. Watch his triumphant Porto side throughout the Champions League knockout phase in 2003-04 and you’ll be surprised by how high his defence position themselves. These days, his defences sit deeper, dropping back to their own penalty box quickly, particularly if Tottenham have gone ahead. On multiple occasions this season, that approach has cost them. While Mourinho would explain it forms part of his attacking strategy, attempting to draw the opposition forward and give Spurs space to counter-attack into, rarely have his side constructed regular breaks to justify their deep positioning.

The thing with defending deep is that you’re asking your defenders to do more traditional defensive tasks. There are more aerial challenges inside your box, more situations where you have to stick tight to a player who is in a goalscoring position, more danger to anticipate and more blocks to be made. It also means that it’s more possible to concede goals that are not, in isolation, attributable to managerial strategy.

When Tottenham lost 2-1 away to Liverpool in December, for example, the goals came from a crazy deflection, and then a late set-piece concession (from, of course, man-to-man marking).

The first goal was unfortunate, but if you allow the opposition 76 per cent of the possession and 17 shots to your eight, there’s more chance of one finding its way into the net almost accidentally. Similarly, if you allow that much pressure, you concede more corners than you win (seven to four in this case), and there’s more chance of one leading to a goal. These things add up over time.

It is sometimes said that Mourinho is antiquated tactically; that his inability to win trophies recently is because he hasn’t adjusted strategically. There’s clearly an element of truth to that, in comparison to Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola, but his primary problem is surely his inability to command the respect of players over a sustained period of time, evidenced by sudden drop-offs in his pre-Tottenham stints with Chelsea and Manchester United.

It came as little surprise that, after Mourinho responded to Sunday’s 2-2 on Tyneside by blaming his players, some of them objected. It’s difficult to imagine many other current managers responding similarly.

But that’s logical if Mourinho’s tactical approach is also out of step with that of his contemporaries. The tactical development of football, particularly over the last couple of decades, is about universality, about particular tasks being done collectively. Modern sides press aggressively from the front and play out from the back, meaning defensive play starts with your attackers and attacking play starts in defence. Every concept is a task for the entire side.

Mourinho’s approach is more old-school. He works less than other contemporary managers on prepared attacking possession routines, preferring to allow playmakers to find solutions themselves. In a world of false nines, Mourinho has always liked true strikers such as Didier Drogba, Diego Milito and Zlatan Ibrahimovic. He also likes proper defenders that belong in their own box: John Terry, Lucio, Ricardo Carvalho.

With that approach, it’s more viable to pin the blame on somebody when things go wrong. If a goal is conceded, a defender is more obviously at fault than the system. And this comes back to that Strachan-Souness debate, which demonstrated that tactical decision-making and man-management are not entirely separate concepts.

Mourinho’s reputation has never been lower, which is why he is determined to shift culpability onto his players and protect himself.

It’s entirely possible that his tactical decision-making is also geared towards absolving himself of blame.

Now, he’s fighting to prove he deserves to be in charge of Tottenham, rather than in his previous role: in a Sky Sports studio, nodding along with Souness.
 
I don't disagree we have been declining under the last 2 years.
But of the 8 players you listed only 2 have been bought in the last 2 seasons, one is plying his trade in Germany, one I disagree as being bad. The rest were part of Top 4 winning squads.
The reason I believe we are going backwards is because we have a manager that has ostracized many of our players, created an awful atmosphere within the squad, is playing tactics that accenuates our weaknesses and under utilises our strengths.
The real shit show has been that our current manager is performing probably the worst with the resources he has, since Terry Neill.
Now I am not saying some of the players don't need to go, a couple will have regressed through age anyway, and you need to always refresh the dressing room even in good times. however I do believe that none can be judged fairly based on the disastrous 16 months that has been Jose.
The ideal solution is he goes in the very near future, and the leash can be taken off for remainder of the season, in a system that suits us, ostracized players can be reintegrated, so we can see which players that are being written off still may have something to offer.

We are at the stage where almost the whole squad is being written off, exactly the same at then end of the AVB/Sherwood season. Walker, Vertonghen, Rose, Dembele, Eriksen etc. were all in the shit and sell bracket then.
I am certain that a lot of the "shit" players will all of a sudden look decent again when, not if, Mourinho goes, and we play to our teams strengths, rather than to its managers outdated tactics.
Top 4 squads not regular starters.
Excluding Harry and Son I highly doubt any of our regular starting 11 would play games for the top 4 teams in the premier league and I include Leicester in that.
 
Read via alistair gold Son going to sign new deal. Jose will be with us next season. Will ship off the dross and bring in some defenders. Think sabitzer and defender from sevilla on radar. Skirinar i can see. Worth having aguero imo. Kane, vilnicius and aguero are good options. Think Ali will go.
 
Read via alistair gold Son going to sign new deal. Jose will be with us next season. Will ship off the dross and bring in some defenders. Think sabitzer and defender from sevilla on radar. Skirinar i can see. Worth having aguero imo. Kane, vilnicius and aguero are good options. Think Ali will go.
Couldn’t you have stopped after the first sentence, the second one completely nuked the first
 
Read via alistair gold Son going to sign new deal. Jose will be with us next season. Will ship off the dross and bring in some defenders. Think sabitzer and defender from sevilla on radar. Skirinar i can see. Worth having aguero imo. Kane, vilnicius and aguero are good options. Think Ali will go.
Skimmed through his latest vid and didn't see any of that. He seemed to be hinting that Mourinho could be end of the season but that was him 'spitballing'. He does say about a lot of fed up players. Not seen him mention Skriniar of late or the Sevilla bloke at all. He did mention Anderson at Fulham a few days back so really not sure where you got this info.
 
Up until the loss at Burnley (2-1) where Poch had a go at Dean, we were 5 points behind Liverpool and 2 behind Man City (20 wins, 6 losses). After that our form nosedived.

So going from that...
12 remaining games of 18/19 season - puts us on 16th place with 12 points.
Next season, Poch lasted 12 games, left us on 14th with 14 points.

So in Poch’s worst run, 24 games in total, we’ve got 26 points. That’s about 1.08 points per game, which is not far from Mourinho’s worst run at Spurs, 1.15 points.
Just give him time...
 
But yet we were....

and then if that is the case..... Why employ mourinho? Is he not the Special One??
Above mere mortals in terms of his managerial style and techniques?? Worth the extra salary to get the extra performance.

Past five years who are these perennial league contenders you speak of? Who is on your list?
Chelsea, City, and more recently Liverpool are such teams. United havent been competitive since SAF left.

As to why employ Mourinho, that would be for Levy to answer, but if he was looking for a miracle worker, he is likely not going to find it in Mourinho or any other manager.
 
Is it any wonder we never win anything when you think the players mentioned are good enough.
The first 2-3 years under Poch we were very good and none of the players mentioned would have got anywhere near the first 11.
We have gone from Walker to Trippier and now Aurier a massive decline.
Prime Toby to Sanchez.
Dembele to Ndombele.
We had been declining for the last 12 months under Poch and the Champions league final papered over massive cracks.
Whoever the manager is next season will fail if the players I mentioned are part of the fist 11
Spot on.

The back up has become the first team.

Jan and Toby has become Sanchez and Dier.
Wanyama and Dembele became Winks and Sissoko.
Walker/Trippier became Doherty/Aurier/Tanganga
Rose became Davies.
Eriksen and good Dele became Lucas and Lamela and shit Dele

It's simply delusional to pretend that we have a squad at the same level as peak Poch's. Maybe we have more "strength in depth" but the first XI is so much worse.

We have made a handful of decent signings in recent years. Hojberg and Reg have hit the ground running and been good additions, though PEH is no peak Dembele or Wanyama.

Ndombele has come good after a year on the treatment table but still needs to influence games more.
Gio has potential but can't stay fit.

People are so desperate to hate Jose that they are willing to lie to themselves.
 
Spot on.

The back up has become the first team.

Jan and Toby has become Sanchez and Dier.
Wanyama and Dembele became Winks and Sissoko.
Walker/Trippier became Doherty/Aurier/Tanganga
Rose became Davies.
Eriksen and good Dele became Lucas and Lamela and shit Dele

It's simply delusional to pretend that we have a squad at the same level as peak Poch's. Maybe we have more "strength in depth" but the first XI is so much worse.

We have made a handful of decent signings in recent years. Hojberg and Reg have hit the ground running and been good additions, though PEH is no peak Dembele or Wanyama.

Ndombele has come good after a year on the treatment table but still needs to influence games more.
Gio has potential but can't stay fit.

People are so desperate to hate Jose that they are willing to lie to themselves.
Nobody is desperate to hate Jose , that does not mean we don’t. He has done nothing in 18 months to make people think he is not a toxic dinosaur, in fact he has merely confirmed those reservations

i have never liked him. but like most Spurs fans i was desperate to see this new footballing philosophy and
a less toxic management style , that would be good for the club we love

It is not our fault he has been super shit and super toxic ahead of schedule
 
Up until the loss at Burnley (2-1) where Poch had a go at Dean, we were 5 points behind Liverpool and 2 behind Man City (20 wins, 6 losses). After that our form nosedived.

So going from that...
12 remaining games of 18/19 season - puts us on 16th place with 12 points.
Next season, Poch lasted 12 games, left us on 14th with 14 points.

So in Poch’s worst run, 24 games in total, we’ve got 26 points. That’s about 1.08 points per game, which is not far from Mourinho’s worst run at Spurs, 1.15 points.
This just always degenerates into a Poch v Jose slagging match.

It was the correct decision to fire Pochettino. He had a good run at it for 5 and a half years but couldn’t get us over the line and the league results over the last 9 months justified his sacking.

It was the wrong choice to succeed him in Mourinho though, and most of us called that from the very start
 
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Read the fucking article, not the fucking headline (the reason why they want you to click and subscribe). If you weren't such a fanboy you would not get so defensive over any of the assertions in this piece, especially whilst everything is pointing to utter dross being served up game after fucking game, with exactly the same patterns repeating themselves no matter who the personnel pick to play.

FWIW: I disagree with the notion mentioned that the Dinosaur plays his system in order to avoid responsibility, I think that's nonsense. I think he plays this way because he thinks that it will get him a result as it used to 15-20yrs ago. He's an old fossil and hasn't developed his game to remain relevant (relevant meaning that he's not elite anymore. If Moyes, Fat Sam, Ancellotti, Pullis were our manager this is exactly what you would see but in fairness to them to without the chucking of players under the bus) in today's game, it's why I call him for what he is, a fucking dinosaur, a has-been.

For instance, there is a great comment about this article on The Athletic website that reads:
"Leeds play a very man to man system if I’ve understood it correctly. Yet Bielsa has never blamed a single player for any defeat or bad performance in his time at the club. Even when Leeds have multiple errors at set-pieces, the manager always takes responsibility. Perhaps it’s not just the system but the character of the manager that matters. Bielsa and Mourinho seem opposites in more than just tactics".

I agree completly with that comment. The article does, however, speak the how the Dinosaur has us set up and as a consequence it's simply inevitable someone in the back 4 will make an error, not because player 'X' is shit but because the dinosaur has this team playing woefully.

The zonal vs man-marking is a good example within the context it's presented.

Report back to Dino Marketing PLC, your doing all you can, another defensive post, another £5 to boost the bank balance, well done.
Mourinho blames others cos he is sore loser, petulant child and an arrogant prick. Its who he has always been, since he stepped on the big stage and I wont ask anyone to hold their breathe that he would change. One doesnt need to twist football tactics to rationalize why - its simply who he is.

I dont give much credence to anyone that tries to twist Zonal vs man-marking into some notion of management style. Such a writer either has an agenda or has no idea what he is wrinting about. But you would easily jumping on anything, no matter how ridiculous, that you think supports your criticism of Mourinho,.

On one hand you claim he is a dinosaur using the system he used 15-20yrs ago, but unsurprisingly ignore the fact that his previous teams (Porto, Chelsea, Madrid) played a high line. If Mourinho was sticking to his old ways we would be playing a high line.

The reality is that it is much more difficult to play a high line successfully than to sit deep and need better players to do so. Most players find it easier to defend the ball in front of them as opposed to facing their own goal.

You cannot play a high line if your defense continuously give the ball back to the opposition while your midfield cannot hold on to the ball. Eventually you will be forced back deep into your own line and your attackers will become pseudo defenders.

This is not about Mourinho, but the reality of the game. But then for you, everything is about Mourinho.
 
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