****England v Italy Euros FINAL 11/07/21 8pm*****

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Tomo said:
We could have KDB and still fail. Grealish and Foden are good enough for City and Pep, they should be good enough for us. Southgate has done well this tournament defensively but I worry we don’t know how to use attacking players as well as we should.
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We could have KDB but unfortunately if the manager doesn't put him in the pitch, there's nothing he could do to influence the game.

We had the tools, but for whatever reason they weren't used in a way to get us over the line.
 
mike_l said:
He was so desperate to take one that a terrified teenager ended up taking the walk from the centre circle for the decisive kick, all because big bad Gary Southgate forced him to do it.

If he's looked at the volunteers and decided that Saka was the best bet for that pen, it's because Grealish stood there meekly saying "I will" and shitting himself stupid when asked if he'd take one.

The fact that in that scenario Southgate chooses Saka over JG, for me, is more damning of Grealish than Southgate.

As for Grealish, he ought to wind his neck in and go back to faffing with his alice band and miniature shinpads if he wants to be in the WC squad, as that comment, however he's tried to dress it up, is shunting all the blame onto Southgate, who has already admirably taken the the burden himself IMO.

Again, I'm no Southgate fan by any stretch, he's a decent bloke but very limited manager, but I think he's been let down big time by some of his players when it comes to the pens. The 120 minute back 7 clusterfuck that preceded it though is all his.
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Penalty taking order last night was based on historic penalty conversion rates and stats from training. So there was logic. But seems like it ignored the ability to cope with pressure.
 
CerealMaterial said:
All I could think of when the Saka missed the final pen is that it’s something that will stay with him for a very long time, and not something he needs as a 19 year old.
Why Southgate allowed him to be the 5th taker is beyond me, even if the kid offered. Put Kane or Maguire in that spot, someone with broader shoulders.

I had some hope that England fans would’ve learnt by now that hanging shit on either of those players wouldn’t be beneficial to anyone. But boy was I wrong, and of course people had to resort to racism as well.
Just a sad affair really.
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Hopefully it won't be so bad as he was one of 3 missed penalties so it's not like it was down to him.

If he was the only one who missed..... Well, I don't know how a 19 year old deals with that kind of thing.
 
Gmspurs said:
Hopefully it won't be so bad as he was one of 3 missed penalties so it's not like it was down to him.

If he was the only one who missed..... Well, I don't know how a 19 year old deals with that kind of thing.
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Comes back stronger?
And in the meantime, counts his money and contemplates how much better his life is than a coal miner.
 
Gmspurs said:
We could have KDB but unfortunately if the manager doesn't put him in the pitch, there's nothing he could do to influence the game.

We had the tools, but for whatever reason they weren't used in a way to get us over the line.
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I think with De Bruyne available, he'd still be sitting on the bench into extra time waiting for Mount to get subbed off.

John-Cleese-Unimpressed.gif
 
OffTheBench said:
Penalty taking order last night was based on historic penalty conversion rates and stats from training. So there was logic. But seems like it ignored the ability to cope with pressure.
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I remember a shoot-out Madrid lost a few years ago and it was Ronaldo, Kaka and Ramos that missed. I've seen Maradona, Baggio and Van Basten miss them in shootouts.

The best way to win a tournament is to win the game in normal time. Because no matter how great or experienced your players are it's always a bit of a lottery.
 
OffTheBench said:
Penalty taking order last night was based on historic penalty conversion rates and stats from training. So there was logic. But seems like it ignored the ability to cope with pressure.
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Not just that, it ignored the impact of being a player who'd been running around for an extended period of time vs sitting on the bench watching the match through your fingers getting more and more anxious.

Putting those two on completely cold just to take penalties was moronic and unfortunately is a lesson learned in the worst possible manner.
 
TonySoprano said:
I remember a shoot-out Madrid lost a few years ago and it was Ronaldo, Kaka and Ramos that missed. I've seen Maradona, Baggio and Van Basten miss them in shootouts.

The best way to win a tournament is to win the game in normal time. Because no matter how great or experienced your players are it's always a bit of a lottery.
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Exactly. Anyone can miss. Your granny could score if the keeper goes the wrong way. Even with the best players and preparation you're still only 60-70% likely to win a shoot out. See Colchester!
 
mike_l said:
I think a lot of this discussion is oversimplifying the process of deciding your penalty takers anyway.

I'm sure there would be a rough list and pecking order, but that would always have to remain somewhat fluid due to in game occurrences, subs, injuries etc. Then come crunch time you have to reassess anyway, those on your list might have had a stinker of a game, legs might have gone, mind might have gone, some will have bottled it, your less gifted players might suddenyl look the most confident...

It's not as simple as saying that Southgate decided on the 5, I'm sure it was a collaborative decision, with input from the coaches too. Subsequently he's done the honorable leader thing and taken the responsibility himself, rather than do a Mourinho and throw the players under the bus.
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I've just read that Pickford was due to take the 6th penalty

It's just utterly baffling that we didn't try to win the match in normal or extra time
 
Can't blame the pen takers and don't know enough about the process for choosing them and the conversations last night to really start pointing fingers.

I thought tactically the 343 worked really well initially so the manager must take credit for that. However once italy started exerting control and increasing the pressure either side of half time, he really needed to go 433 to give us an extra body in midfield, get hold of the ball (which kept coming back) and relieve the pressure. He did it but only after Italy scored and I hope with hindsight he learns his lesson between a reactive and proactive approach during games.

The formation change got England back into the game rather than any of the individual subs, none of whom were particularly good.

He does lots really well as manager and although tactics isn't his strongest suit, he should still be in place for the world cup, his approach to each game shows some detailed thinking and sense, I just feel he's a bit loath to make changes to tactics during games until it's a bit late.

Great tournament overall and looking forward to the next one.
 
Still absolutely gutted that we lost and made worse that I still had to get up for work!

It's a fine achievement getting to the Final but I can't help but feel that we blew our best chance to end our trophy drought.

The next WC is only next year but it's bloody Qatar and hard to get excited about that.

Congrats to fogueres fogueres and the Italian team.
 
Col_McCafferty said:
Still absolutely gutted that we lost and made worse that I still had to get up for work!

It's a fine achievement getting to the Final but I can't help but feel that we blew our best chance to end our trophy drought.

The next WC is only next year but it's bloody Qatar and hard to get excited about that.

Congrats to fogueres fogueres and the Italian team.
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Thank you for your sportsmanship.As already written in other posts, these finals are played on a tightrope.
The most important thing is not only the result but also what has been built.

Two great teams met last night.
 
TylerB said:
Out of the two it's clear Maguire is the one given responsibility to move up the pitch with the ball at times though. If Stones isn't allowed to do it then it's no fault of Stones. Ultimately I want my defender to defend and Stones has done that brilliantly for the majority this tournament. I always had concerns there was a big mistake in him but that never played out. Along with the Italians our defense, including Pickford, was the best in the tournament.
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Which is kind of strange because Stones is great at carrying the ball up the pitch for City. I'm not saying Maguire isn't, because he's obviously capable of it - I just know Stones is exceptional at it. It's something I was actually thinking England should do more of when they were trying to break teams down. When Stones makes those runs, it creates so much space for the players around him and drags the defense apart.

I'm not criticzing the England defense because they clearly played well, I was just also surprised Stones didn't get involved more going forward.
 
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