Dele

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
NO ONE IS BETTER THAN SON, that's quite the benchmark!! And from a player in his absolute prime at 28yrs old (worth noting that his numbers were nothing like Dele's were between 19-24yrs old!!!).

Please make up your mind Toddles, you can either choose to use a stat or not, you're doing a good impression doing both to suit whatever narrative you which to spin.

You know very well and I've specifically detailed previously that I don't judge or merit him on his superb finishing ability numbers. I rate his pressing, his runs, his link-up and whilst far from his ideal position, his versatility when deployed in deeper roles.
 
...but utilizing your very own graph it shows that Dele's goals are mostly made NOT by him yet you are attempting to attribute some measure of value beyond that to his goals being at a younger age. These are goals comparisons in the same team where Dele was an ever-present and Sonny was not...age got nothing to do with it.


No idea what you are attempting to even say here. I DID use the graph and properly interpreted it for you and others who might waltz on by. It is a deeper interpretation that just looking at the goal numbers. Are you suggesting my interpretation is wrong in some way? Then how am I using it and also not using it then? And what are my particular narratives I'm trying to spin? Perhaps you need to flesh this attempt to put me on the defensive out a little more.

Do you have any interpretation of the graph beyond "and he can't get a start in the PL" because even the graph provides info about that...you know, all he does is score goals. Been said about a lot of players but that critique is deeper than the surface level.


As I've told you before I initially didn't and then through all of your hemming and hawing about off screen stuff I decided to take you at your word... But now I know it's truly the goals. Which is fine as a lot of folks rate players only on goal contributions. You got any negative critiques to balance out all the off-screen awesomeness I don't see?
It's not "my" graph.

I posted the graph in Son's thread (as the detail was quite obviously used is about him) and in Kane's too as they detailed them as well and therefore pertinent to those players. I thought they made interesting viewing, as they weren't just the run of the mill numbers but more precisely showing other players in the PL.

If I come across any other numbers relating to him or any other player then I will more than likely post those too, just as I have been doing for years now. Some I post as to back up a specific point I'm making, sometimes it's just because they might be of interest to forum members/viewers.

No, you made the accusation of me solely using his goals of a measure of him, I didn't go deep on any analysis on them when I posted (just as I didn't in Kane's or Son's thread).

It matters not whether his goals were made by him or not, why does this matter? What's the relevance whether they are or aren't?

There is loads to extrapolate from this as the scope is really broad as is the positions of the players detailed and of course the style of the teams they play for, it's why I've made zero attempts to deep dive on anything, just posted as a point of interest.
 

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
No, you made the accusation of me solely using his goals of a measure of him, I didn't go deep on any analysis on them when I posted (just as I didn't in Kane's or Son's thread).
...and where did I do that? More precisely, in the span of our correspondence today where have I made this assertion beyond the "I did, I didn't, I do again because you haven't shown anything else" explanation. You cannot find a explicit assertion by me.

It matters not whether his goals were made by him or not, why does this matter? What's the relevance whether they are or aren't?
Are you serious? I would expect this type of statement from some on here but not you. Point being Sonny can score Dele's goals but not the other way around. Creating your own goals, goals with low xG is a credit to the player and his singular ability. Tapping them in while goal hanging and being free of any other responsibility is the stuff of chumps. But perhaps the inability to grasp this is why many still rate Dele (and think this is just down to bad form) and I never have. It's about quality. Ryan Sessegnon scored many goals in the Champo in similar fashion to Dele...how did that translate? Over here both would be described pejoratively as 'system players'. These are the players you get rid of as quickly as you can when a high bid/xfer deal avails itself and replace them with a player with real intrinsic quality...the type of stuff that happens on-screen as well as off. Yet here we are, folks still pining for his midfield stylings.

There is loads to extrapolate from this as the scope is really broad as is the positions of the players detailed and of course the style of the teams they play for, it's why I've made zero attempts to deep dive on anything, just posted as a point of interest.
Actually there isn't. Goals as a function of xG takes care of most of that. But you used it as the basis to imply he should be getting a game in the PL. We're top and don't seem to miss him and won't miss him if whoever has the authority to sanction his move sanctions it. We won't miss him and he will not go on to become this great player somewhere else. Willing to bet that too.
 

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
I think I've posted this or similar comments he has made myself. What's the point here?
These are new...:allitongue:further cementing Mou's stance and the point that irrespective of all the circle jerks that happened after the 7th goal penalty in a 7-2 game and other very average performances he's still not done enough to even get into the 18. So folks wishing on a prayer are jsut fooling themselves with nonsense. When this player has a truly good performance we will know it. And if it helps my team then I will be fully behind him. And perhaps he might be rewarded with a bench role. But until that time I, like Mou, think his presence in the squad hurts the team. That is unless you think some fraud occurred and would like a recount. Couldn't resist, similar type holdout.
 
...and where did I do that? More precisely, in the span of our correspondence today where have I made this assertion beyond the "I did, I didn't, I do again because you haven't shown anything else" explanation. You cannot find a explicit assertion by me.


Are you serious? I would expect this type of statement from some on here but not you. Point being Sonny can score Dele's goals but not the other way around. Creating your own goals, goals with low xG is a credit to the player and his singular ability. Tapping them in while goal hanging and being free of any other responsibility is the stuff of chumps. But perhaps the inability to grasp this is why many still rate Dele (and think this is just down to bad form) and I never have. It's about quality. Ryan Sessegnon scored many goals in the Champo in similar fashion to Dele...how did that translate? Over here both would be described pejoratively as 'system players'. These are the players you get rid of as quickly as you can when a high bid/xfer deal avails itself and replace them with a player with real intrinsic quality...the type of stuff that happens on-screen as well as off. Yet here we are, folks still pining for his midfield stylings.


Actually there isn't. Goals as a function of xG takes care of most of that. But you used it as the basis to imply he should be getting a game in the PL. We're top and don't seem to miss him and won't miss him if whoever has the authority to sanction his move sanctions it. We won't miss him and he will not go on to become this great player somewhere else. Willing to bet that too.
Seriously "tap-in's" and "goal hanging"........................OK!!! let's just end this here.

 

Zest

Choose Life This Day
He just seems better than Lucas or Bergwijn.

But he plays at a slow mental pace, his Achilles. Plus he's been sluggish physically for too long to be a 'work in progress', unless he reads my thread in Off Topic on diet foundations to re-ignite that metabolic spark, he's not got the exquisite passing and movement we've seen from LoCelso and NDombele, they unlock Kane and Son much more than Dele is showing capable of, in this team and style.

Shame.
 

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
Seriously "tap-in's" and "goal hanging"........................OK!!! let's just end this here.

They're 'expected goals' Guido...a player is expected to score them. And then again, it's not about the goals right?

And 'outrage' is the lamest form of counter-argument like "OMG I'm outraged you would even suggest a certain thing. Now I will ignore the very strong points you make against my very weak argument and walk out of here on my high horse with dignity and delusion intact...and I will proffer the same flimsy argument next week as if I've not been shown the wiser. Good day, sir!" Does that about cover it? It's common round these parts.

You wanna know the other weak 'argument' people use when all else fails? The whole "you're rooting against a Spurs' player. Are you even Spurs?" type of purity test bullshit. Unfortunately, in this instance, I have repeatedly said I believe he hurts my team. And it seems Mou agrees with me. And beyond that we are top and he's barely sniffed the goddamn PL field this season and we are top. The one game he played significant minutes...yup, Everton. Remind us how his off screen game help us that day? The other game? A cameo in the ManU blowout. And yet we are top!!!! If I am right and he does hurt our team, and evidence supports my theory, those of you that are gagging for him to be in our league 18 are literally rooting against our team's best interests, player over club. That is, if my theory holds and evidence seems to support it...and Mou too.
 
They're 'expected goals' Guido...a player is expected to score them. And then again, it's not about the goals right?

And 'outrage' is the lamest form of counter-argument like "OMG I'm outraged you would even suggest a certain thing. Now I will ignore the very strong points you make against my very weak argument and walk out of here on my high horse with dignity and delusion intact...and I will proffer the same flimsy argument next week as if I've not been shown the wiser. Good day, sir!" Does that about cover it? It's common round these parts.

You wanna know the other weak 'argument' people use when all else fails? The whole "you're rooting against a Spurs' player. Are you even Spurs?" type of purity test bullshit. Unfortunately, in this instance, I have repeatedly said I believe he hurts my team. And it seems Mou agrees with me. And beyond that we are top and he's barely sniffed the goddamn PL field this season and we are top. The one game he played significant minutes...yup, Everton. Remind us how his off screen game help us that day? The other game? A cameo in the ManU blowout. And yet we are top!!!! If I am right and he does hurt our team, and evidence supports my theory, those of you that are gagging for him to be in our league 18 are literally rooting against our team's best interests, player over club. That is, if my theory holds and evidence seems to support it...and Mou too.
I know what xG is Toddles and how it's presented within the diagram.

I'm not making a case or argument for anything. I posted the same diagram in Son's thread and Kane's as a point of interest.

I'm not outraged, I've nothing to be outraged about. I was dismissive of you seeing as your objectivity has completly deserted you on account of you saying he's goals are "tap-in's" from "goal hanging", seriously they aren't as is blatantly obvious. On this basis, I fail the need to even enter a debate that I've not even entertained.

He's barely played, there's nothing new to discuss. Of the mins he's played he's been good but aginst pony teams so I've not even commented post-match. I know how you feel about him but again nothing has changed, so what are you adding that I don't already know about how you feel?
 

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
I know what xG is Toddles and how it's presented within the diagram.

I'm not making a case or argument for anything. I posted the same diagram in Son's thread and Kane's as a point of interest.

I'm not outraged, I've nothing to be outraged about. I was dismissive of you seeing as your objectivity has completly deserted you on account of you saying he's goals are "tap-in's" from "goal hanging", seriously they aren't as is blatantly obvious. On this basis, I fail the need to even enter a debate that I've not even entertained.

He's barely played, there's nothing new to discuss. Of the mins he's played he's been good but aginst pony teams so I've not even commented post-match. I know how you feel about him but again nothing has changed, so what are you adding that I don't already know about how you feel?
Guido, this is disingenuous. What you actually posted had commentary not just some innocent "hey guys check out these stats" as you are suggesting here. I believe what you said was:

And he doesn't even get mins in PL anymore.

...that's commentary and you know, I know, and everyone else knows what you meant. He doesn't get into the squad for PL minutes because he's a terrible all around footballer and has been for years, we are top (say it again for the folks in the back!), and we don't look like missing him or needing his services anytime soon. You're leading the Dele charge and as you point to the speck in my eye that is a lack of objectivity you neglect to notice the beam that is in your own. Again with you, projection!!!! All the facts on the ground support my perspective. What supports yours? Again, who lacks objectivity?

I know how you feel about him but again nothing has changed, so what are you adding that I don't already know about how you feel?
Smugness, maybe? Only a dollop though... But remember, you called me out on the penalty goal, right? Don't play victim now as I dance the dance of the person who laughs last. Again, we are top.
 
Guido, this is disingenuous. What you actually posted had commentary not just some innocent "hey guys check out these stats" as you are suggesting here. I believe what you said was:



...that's commentary and you know, I know, and everyone else knows what you meant. He doesn't get into the squad for PL minutes because he's a terrible all around footballer and has been for years, we are top (say it again for the folks in the back!), and we don't look like missing him or needing his services anytime soon. You're leading the Dele charge and as you point to the speck in my eye that is a lack of objectivity you neglect to notice the beam that is in your own. Again with you, projection!!!! All the facts on the ground support my perspective. What supports yours? Again, who lacks objectivity?


Smugness, maybe? Only a dollop though... But remember, you called me out on the penalty goal, right? Don't play victim now as I dance the dance of the person who laughs last. Again, we are top.
That's NOT commentary mate. That's NOT a breakdown of thoughts. It's no more than a throwaway comment (from a poster that notoriously gets into longwinded posts about players). Because he's an obsession subject of yours, it's triggered you into repeating what you've already written about him.

I've no issue in your opinions Toddles, I disagree with you in most areas about him but I enjoy debating them with you. However, he doesn't get mins anymore, there's nothing further to debate that hasn't already been debated. So, forgive me please, I don't wish to spin wheels over him again. Let's wait until there's something concrete to evaluate. Maybe this will be a significant run of games in Kangeroo Cup, FA Cup and EL, rather than just the one or two apps so far or maybe he moves on. But until then it's all been said and done.
 
But he plays at a slow mental pace, his Achilles. Plus he's been sluggish physically for too long to be a 'work in progress', unless he reads my thread in Off Topic on diet foundations to re-ignite that metabolic spark, he's not got the exquisite passing and movement we've seen from LoCelso and NDombele, they unlock Kane and Son much more than Dele is showing capable of, in this team and style.

Shame.
This is it really. Tanguy and Lo Celso are just better releasing the ball in the quick transition style.

Unlike the N’Dombele situation, I’m convinced Jose has no real beef with Dele, he’s just come to the conclusion (correctly in my view) that the squad is full of other players who suit this style better.

he gave Dele More chances than everyone and the team was Unbalanced by it. Dele just hasn’t been able to adjust his role as the team has evolved. He’s lost out just like Winks and Sanchez, whilst someone like Dier has won. It happens.
 

todd1882

Airfixx can't quit me!
That's NOT commentary mate. That's NOT a breakdown of thoughts. It's no more than a throwaway comment (from a poster that notoriously gets into longwinded posts about players). Because he's an obsession subject of yours, it's triggered you into repeating what you've already written about him.
:mourwhat:

I've no issue in your opinions Toddles, I disagree with you in most areas about him but I enjoy debating them with you. However, he doesn't get mins anymore, there's nothing further to debate that hasn't already been debated. So, forgive me please, I don't wish to spin wheels over him again. Let's wait until there's something concrete to evaluate. Maybe this will be a significant run of games in Kangeroo Cup, FA Cup and EL, rather than just the one or two apps so far or maybe he moves on. But until then it's all been said and done.
Deal, but that in bold ain't gonna happen.

I do have a question though. What would it take to change your opinion of this player? That's not to say that factual things that happened in the past didn't happen but to say, perhaps, you may have had it wrong about the player. For example, if we sell to ManU and it became a Sanchez situation and they got rid to Inter and it because like an Eriksen situation and they got rid to Birmingham City and they got rid to Southend and they got rid to Dagenham and Redbridge and they got rid to Barrow etc etc ad infinitum until he was playing non-league on the Isle of Man. Clearly to a reasonable person upon reflection they would realize they had it wrong. What would make you say you had it wrong? Choose wisely and do me a favor and actually answer this one.
 
Seriously "tap-in's" and "goal hanging"........................OK!!! let's just end this here.

What is obvious watching the highlights reel for Alli is the slow inextricably accumulation of muscle bulk and the loss of fluity as the boys frame becomes a man's. Not sure what our fitness people do for a living but I think it is obvious that it puts a strain on knees and hamstrings. Its happened to Eric Dier and Harry Kane also its weird and it needs to be addressed because I think its behind some of the issues our players have had. Moussa Sissoko is designed by nature to function with the level of muscle he carries im not sure you optimise any of the other three by mimicking him.
 
:mourwhat:


Deal, but that in bold ain't gonna happen.

I do have a question though. What would it take to change your opinion of this player? That's not to say that factual things that happened in the past didn't happen but to say, perhaps, you may have had it wrong about the player. For example, if we sell to ManU and it became a Sanchez situation and they got rid to Inter and it because like an Eriksen situation and they got rid to Birmingham City and they got rid to Southend and they got rid to Dagenham and Redbridge and they got rid to Barrow etc etc ad infinitum until he was playing non-league on the Isle of Man. Clearly to a reasonable person upon reflection they would realize they had it wrong. What would make you say you had it wrong? Choose wisely and do me a favor and actually answer this one.
Well yeah, if he ends up playing for Dagenham and Redbridge next season then I could say, you know what I was wrong about him. But that still doesn't change what he achieved prior.

(The fact though Eriksen is going through a difficult period doesn't mean I or anyone else was wrong about him too, he was simply fantastic for us and proved himself as one of Europe best midfielders. Coutinho (who I never rated as highly as Eriksen but I still rated very highly) is equally going through a tough spell ever since leaving Liverpool but is he seen as a shit? The fact that he went for a ton of money and to Barca and then to Bayern I bet stands him in good stead on how he's viewed but that still doesn't detract from how he played or not played because he spent a lot of the time on the bench. Will Eriksen be viewed as a shit player or a very good player when he hangs up his boots? Will Sanchez go down as a shit player or a very good player? What about Ozil, shit or good?)

There are lots and if's and butts in what you say and will take +10yrs to playout and then evaluate, so not sure you will get an answer from me until his career is over, in order to evaluate it. But I'm not going anywhere.

I'd prefer to watch him play and see what he does and comment on what I see and what happens. I would also prefer to do this with a run of mins to gain a picture, rather than just a good performance against a poor side (Happy to comment if he's selected against several poor sides, not just the once if that makes sense).
 
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What is obvious watching the highlights reel for Alli is the slow inextricably accumulation of muscle bulk and the loss of fluity as the boys frame becomes a man's. Not sure what our fitness people do for a living but I think it is obvious that it puts a strain on knees and hamstrings. Its happened to Eric Dier and Harry Kane also its weird and it needs to be addressed because I think its behind some of the issues our players have had. Moussa Sissoko is designed by nature to function with the level of muscle he carries im not sure you optimise any of the other three by mimicking him.
I get what you are saying but it's really hard to evaluate in just these terms e.g you bring up Kane, who's arguably having his best-ever season which would debunk that theory.

Neither of them is in the realms of Adama Trarore, who I think is simply too big but flip the coin and it could be argued that he's built to be a devastating 45min player, perhaps this is a deliberate decision within his camp???

When I look at Dele I don't see a lad carrying too much bulk, yes his gone from a wirey cross-country type runner to someone with a bigger physique but I wouldn't say it's something that would affect his performance negatively. What may have a bigger impact was/is his hammies??? So specifically dose he still have the ability to bring a high ball down by jumping and raising his leg (big hamstring stretch) above an opponent? This I'd say was a classic Dele thing, a deep ball played over the top of a defence that he would bring down with one touch and shoot (or lay off) with the next touch.
 

eanN17

Supporter
Tbh. the medical department from Spurs was a disaster back then and Dazza was one of the biggest victims back then. Anderton was a fine player for us, and doesn't really deserve to be ridiculed for his problems, partly even caused by the club.
AZSpurs What did you disagree with here? That the medical department was a disaster? Or that he was a victim of bad medical treatment?
 
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