The Trust have called for the board to resign.

[The Outsider]

A 4m CEO salary for a 500m turnover company is not unusual ...

Not unusual? Really? ‘For the financial year ending 2019, FTSE 100 CEOs took home a median pay package worth £3.61M’

we wouldn’t even get into the FTSE 500 with a 500M revenue (400M next year by the way).

with all due respect, I imagine you started your biz from scratch rather than taking an operational role and weasling your way to a 20% stake

You're comparing apples and oranges - a Chairman who runs a private company as a CEO earns vastly more than a CEO in a listed company with a seperate President and Chairman and probably six or seven people on the same level as him - that's a FTSE company structure not a privately owned one.

I bought my business from the lovely old guy that owned it after working for him for a decade, kept it for nearly thirty years more as a hobby than a real earner, only after I left corporate life did I do much with it, now it's long since been sold on when I left the UK.

As Owner, President, Chairmen, CEO and often floor sweeper as well, the revenue increase generated would 100% not have happened anyway ... very few companies grow without hard work.

In 2004/5 look at these revenues:

Woolwich 171m
Newcastle 129m
Tottenham 105m
Schaklke 97m
Lyon 93m
Everton 89m
West Ham 75m

No look at 2019/20 for the same clubs:

Tottenham 445m
Woolwich 388m
Schaklke 222m
Everton 212m
Lyon 180m
West Ham 158m
Newcastle 129m

Your argument - but the revenue would have grown anyway - are you sure? How come it didn't grow the same amount for all the clubs around us back in 2004/5 ....

If you can't accept that off the pitch ENIC have been a massive success you really are denying reality.

 

[Trotter]

Except the profit was from that year's trading so we didn't have it to spend until the year after - that's how economics work.

So you somehow think we made £113m profit on the exact date of June 30th 2018 (a day when we weren't playing by the way), and not a penny beforehand, and had no brought forward profits either ?
Because that is the ONLY way the above statement can be valid.

Profit is an outcome, of income less costs, it is not cash that only becomes available at the end of a trading year, it would have been accruing through the year, Of course there was monies available throughout the year in question, if we had decided (and weren't restricted by lender covenances on stadium) to spend it. If we had spent it during the year, all that would have happened is the £113m would have been reduced.
And also who don't need to make profit in a year to be able to spend, you need cash, or borrowing ability, and ideally some brought forward reserves, both of which we had in abundance.
I responded to a previous absurb financial post of yours 2 pages back now also.

Please stay away from giving people finance or "economics" lessons, because frankly you are nowhere near qualified to, as shown by that comment and your previous post.

By all means carry on with the CEO salary comparisons, revenue over year posts to back up your argument, you can't go too far wrong with them, but don't start posting crap like this or your previous post about the club will be sold for nett 800m because you have to take stadium debt off a valuation again, and have the gall to tell people that is how things work, when all it really shows to anybody that does understand finance is that you are totally lacking any fundamental understanding in that area.

 

[The Outsider]

So you somehow think we made £113m profit on the exact date of June 30th 2018 (a day when we weren't playing by the way), and not a penny beforehand, and had no brought forward profits either ?
Because that is the ONLY way the above statement can be valid.

You do understand this is real life not just your one size fits all ivory tower overview? We're talking about a football club here, let me ask have you ever worked for one? The asset revaluations (players), player amortisation, outstanding transfer payments, loan payments are all often applied in single amounts on the finalisation of accounts ... but you knew that right?

Why? because in football nearly all player's contracts and nearly all transfer payments are set for the end of June. This means nearly all major financial transactions are also set for the end of June, but as a self-proclaimed expert on football finance you knew that already off course, you weren't just applying a blanket overview to a specific industry and making 2+2=5 were you?

As for "you need cash" of course you do, but when you are in the middle of using bridging loans to finance a billion pound development plan every penny in cash you have will be firmly held to ensure you don't fall short ... if you'd been paying attention you'd be aware that as soon as the longt term bonds were in place to pay off those loans we have spent 260m on new players in two years ... you think that's a coincidence?

If it wasn't for Covid we would probably spend another 100m this summer, and who knows we still might, with long term debt covered and plenty of cash in the bank, now would be a good time to exploit clubs less well managed and in deep financial trouble ... we can but hope.

I will readily admit that I've been out of the football accounting game for the best part of twenty years, but even after all that time pretty sure the basic levers remain the same.

Me thinks you're trying to muddy the waters ... the club under ENIC .. OFF .. the field have moved a long way ahead from it's comparable mid-table rivals at that time, it's even managed to catch and then surpass Woolwich, we've get a lot closer to the EPL top four and into Europe's top ten.

However ON the pitch whilst we've gone from averaging around 10th in the 90's to averaging 5th in the last decade, as I've said before that's no longer good enough we need to be averaging fourth or better ... ENIC are not doing enough to achieve success on the pitch, no argument there, but off the pitch they remain one of the most successful owners in football.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is never a good idea - fix the broken half don't break the half that works.

 

[Trotter]

You do understand accounting? All the full year adjustments such as depreciation, asset revaluation, player amortisation, outstanding transfer payments, loan payments are applied on the finalisation of accounts ... you knew that right?

I bloody hope I understand accounting, as was Finance Director/CFO at various companies.

No, they are all applied differently
Depreciation/amortization is applied daily, and is not a cash consideration.
Asset revaluation is applied periodically, if at all, and Spurs don't revalue assets, full purchase price amortized over period of the contract down to zero book value. And again not a cash consideration
Outstanding transfer payments - not a P&L item, but balance sheet and cash, and certainly not a year end adjustment, but an adjustment as and when you make a new purchase or pay some off.

Again you just showed a lack of understanding of finance, especially mixing up cash, balance sheet and P&L

Maybe because in your small business your accountant applied things like depreciation annually (although you certainly would not apply loan payments or outstanding transfer payments annually) when he did your books for you , does not mean that is what happens in the real world, when owners/shareholders/stakeholders want to know the state of their business during the year, minimum monthly, rather than maybe for the first time a few months after the year in question has finished.

For a third time, don't post on a subject you don't understand.

 

[Trotter]

Nice adjustments to your previous post Outsider, based on my response to your further .
lack of understanding,, totally changing what you were saying.
Fortunately I had quoted your post before you made loads and loads of adjustments to it.

Well done.

Pointless carrying on if you are going to do things like that, but think I have shown to anybody that can understand that you are way out of your depth here, and your ridiculous, you take long term debt off of the valuation of the club and that is what club would be bought for post, and if they need any financial or economic lessons, you are not the person to give them.

 

[The Outsider]

I bloody hope I understand accounting, as was Finance Director/CFO at various companies.

No, they are all applied differently
Depreciation/amortization is applied daily, and is not a cash consideration.
Asset revaluation is applied periodically, if at all, and Spurs don't revalue assets, full purchase price amortized over period of the contract down to zero book value. And again not a cash consideration
Outstanding transfer payments - not a P&L item, but balance sheet and cash, and certainly not a year end adjustment, but an adjustment as and when you make a new purchase or pay some off.

Again you just showed a lack of understanding of finance, especially mixing up cash, balance sheet and P&L

Maybe because in your small business your accountant applied things like depreciation annually (although you certainly would not apply loan payments or outstanding transfer payments annually) when he did your books for you , does not mean that is what happens in the real world, when owners/shareholders/stakeholders want to know the state of their business during the year, minimum monthly, rather than maybe for the first time a few months after the year in question has finished.

For a third time, don't post on a subject you don't understand.

I'm sure you are fully qualified, not questioning that at all, but having worked with two top flight clubs I do have some first hand knowledge, if that's totally changed in the last 17 years then fair enough I'll bow to your more recent experience.

"Maybe because in your small business" - that made me smile, when I was a board member the group I worked for were ranked well inside the FTSE top 100, still are I think ... that was a long time ago.

FYI - I was called in with my firm to advise on their books ... so just maybe they thought we did understand ... they certainly paid us well enough.

Argument is moot - I'm 17 years retired so will bow to your more current knowledge.

The point is ENIC are extremely good with the books, just not so good where it matters for most fans.

 

[Trotter]

I'm sure you are fully qualified, not questioning that at all, but having worked with two top flight clubs I do have some first hand knowledge, if that's totally changed in the last 17 years then fair enough I'll bow to your more recent experience.

"Maybe because in your small business" - that made me smile, when I was a board member the group I worked for were ranked well inside the FTSE top 100, still are I think ... that was a long time ago.

FYI - I was called in with my firm to advise on their books ... so just maybe they thought we did understand ... they certainly paid us well enough.

Argument is moot - I'm 17 years retired so will bow to your more current knowledge.

The point is ENIC are extremely good with the books, just not so good where it matters for most fans.

OK will call a truce.

Yes I am fully qualified, although left a major overseas corporate 3 years ago as a Finance Director, and am now in Trade Finance arranging Financial solutions for cash optimization for corporates across the world, Basically in a similar sector that Greensill were in before collapse, but not the risky and murky Future receivable market. In fact met Lex Greensill a couple of times as he was wanting to do business with us in my previous role.

And am not denying ENIC are not good with their books, they are an extremely well run business, but their priorities and the priority of fans are not quite polar opposites, but not far from it.

 

[The Outsider]

OK will call a truce.

Yes I am fully qualified, although left a major overseas corporate 3 years ago as a Finance Director, and am now in Trade Finance arranging Financial solutions for cash optimization for corporates across the world,

And am not denying ENIC are not good with their books, but their priorities and the priority of fans are not quite polar opposites, but not far from it.

We're in blind agreement - the problem with having bean-counters (and I was one for quite a while) running the shop is whilst we may in the short term make you money in the long term if we piss of your 'customers' then you're going to be screwed.

ENIC may well have pissed off to many 'customers' already, although as we all know customers, or more correctly fans have very short memories, we will soon be calling Levy the messiah if Spurs win the EPL or CL under his watch.

I very much doubt anyone will pay him enough in the current environment to sell the club, but as things improve after Covid, if he can't get in a manager (and for me a decent DoF) to make things better on the pitch his days must surely start to be numbered.

 

[Trotter]

We're in blind agreement - the problem with having bean-counters (and I was one for quite a while) running the shop is whilst we may in the short term make you money in the long term if we piss of your 'customers' then you're going to be screwed.

ENIC may well have pissed off to many 'customers' already, although as we all know customers, or more correctly fans have very short memories, we will soon be calling Levy the messiah if Spurs win the EPL or CL under his watch.

I very much doubt anyone will pay him enough in the current environment to sell the club, but as things improve after Covid, if he can't get in a manager (and for me a decent DoF) to make things better on the pitch his days must surely start to be numbered.

I think the worm has turned now. The last week was the episode that tipped the balance.
I happily voted at the Trust meeting on Friday for his removal from the board, and work commitments permitting will be outside the stadium protesting for each of our remaining home matches.
Legislation will be imposed and quickly after review, from top down I believe restricting his ability to do anything like this again. Whether that is a golden vote, 50%+1 voting, but not ownership model, banning work permits for players of clubs playing in any non recognised competition, who knows, but the wheels are certainly in motion.
It is quite nice that the leader of that review, Tracey Crouch, is a Spurs fan by the way.

Whether we can get a buyer I am not sure, not many that would be interested have £2bn minimum spare cash, and much cheaper options out there, although there is interest in Woolwich declared. ENIC may be willing to place a fair percentage of their shares on the market for individual investors to dilute their investment though, especially if their Super League dream is over, and revenue opportunities are stagnated.

 

[The Outsider]

I think the worm has turned now. The last week was the episode that tipped the balance.
I happily voted at the Trust meeting on Friday for his removal from the board, and work commitments permitting will be outside the stadium protesting for each of our remaining home matches.
Legislation will be imposed and quickly after review, from top down I believe restricting his ability to do anything like this again. Whether that is a golden vote, 50%+1 voting, but not ownership model, banning work permits for players of clubs playing in any non recognised competition, who knows, but the wheels are certainly in motion.
It is quite nice that the leader of that review, Tracey Crouch, is a Spurs fan by the way.

Whether we can get a buyer I am not sure, not many that would be interested have £2bn minimum spare cash, and much cheaper options out there, although there interest in Woolwich declared. ENIC may be willing to place a fair percentage of their shares on the market for individual investors to dilute their investment though, especially if their Super League dream is over.

All very much anecdotal but the speculation is that Lewis/Levy might be willing to place 51% of shares in the hands of qualified Spurs supporters, however these would be Class B shares and would have limited voting rights, sold at lower value than ordinary shares. Selling 51% of ordinary shares is simply a non-starter as under Rule 9 anyone who acquires shares carrying 30% or more of the voting rights would be required to make a bid, if there are 51% on the market that opens Levy up to a hostile takeover, and he be a fool if he went there.

Tracey Couch and Daniel Levy bumped heads over Wembley, but by all accounts since she quit as a minister in 2018 she's been a regular at the ground both for matches and social events. Pretty sure she won't be showing Spurs any favours but I'm sure DL has already been in her ear.

If it was me this is what I'd do - ENIC International Limited would create 2m new class B shares with restricted voting rights, these would be allocated a 51% stake in EIL. From a control point of view this wouldn't mean all that much, depends what those limited voting rights cover, obviously joining another league would be one area where they would be given a vote, but no vote that would impact the day to day running or the club's finances. The big plus side is that 2m Class B shares at 100 quid each would put another 200m in the transfer budget, less my 10% commission of course.

Edit: All Levy has to do is get Tracey and the kids to buy 1% each and it's job done anyway.

 

[Zomb]

You're comparing apples and oranges - a Chairman who runs a private company as a CEO earns vastly more than a CEO in a listed company with a seperate President and Chairman and probably six or seven people on the same level as him - that's a FTSE company structure not a privately owned one.

I bought my business from the lovely old guy that owned it after working for him for a decade, kept it for nearly thirty years more as a hobby than a real earner, only after I left corporate life did I do much with it, now it's long since been sold on when I left the UK.

As Owner, President, Chairmen, CEO and often floor sweeper as well, the revenue increase generated would 100% not have happened anyway ... very few companies grow without hard work.

In 2004/5 look at these revenues:

Woolwich 171m
Newcastle 129m
Tottenham 105m
Schaklke 97m
Lyon 93m
Everton 89m
West Ham 75m

No look at 2019/20 for the same clubs:

Tottenham 445m
Woolwich 388m
Schaklke 222m
Everton 212m
Lyon 180m
West Ham 158m
Newcastle 129m

Your argument - but the revenue would have grown anyway - are you sure? How come it didn't grow the same amount for all the clubs around us back in 2004/5 ....

If you can't accept that off the pitch ENIC have been a massive success you really are denying reality.

So when you quoted the top 500 businesses, which list was that? All private companies or the top 500 US listed?

very selective on the club revenue comparisons there..... we’ve outperformed many but been outperformed (off the pitch) by our rivals. What’s the growth comparison for Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and City?

 

[Zomb]

We're in blind agreement - the problem with having bean-counters (and I was one for quite a while) running the shop is whilst we may in the short term make you money in the long term if we piss of your 'customers' then you're going to be screwed.

ENIC may well have pissed off to many 'customers' already, although as we all know customers, or more correctly fans have very short memories, we will soon be calling Levy the messiah if Spurs win the EPL or CL under his watch.

I very much doubt anyone will pay him enough in the current environment to sell the club, but as things improve after Covid, if he can't get in a manager (and for me a decent DoF) to make things better on the pitch his days must surely start to be numbered.

Lewis will hopefully croak it soon and that will surely lead to a shake up

 

[stevee]

I......... will be outside the stadium protesting for each of our remaining home matches.

Respect mate

It'll be interesting to see how many turn up for these protests. I would of thought that any one wanting Levy out would be able to attend at least one.

 

[The Outsider]

So when you quoted the top 500 businesses, which list was that? All private companies or the top 500 US listed?

very selective on the club revenue comparisons there..... we’ve outperformed many but been outperformed (off the pitch) by our rivals. What’s the growth comparison for Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and City?

Top 500 CEO salaries ... guess it's a worldwide list but does it matter?

Why selective? - as I clearly stated "all the clubs around us back in 2004/5" that's from the Forbes annual valuations

Look the rest up .... there is a search facility you can use.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I must admit, that being the first internet based dust up between two accountant types I’ve seen, I didn’t expect it to be enjoyable at all, but it was pretty decent.

Well done chaps. May I suggest after you both slapped your cocks out on your ledgers, they were similarly sized.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

I think the OP might be my most popular post ever!

 

[NorseYid]

Revenues are ultimately driven by performance on the pitch though. So the investment in infrastructure is just a way of generating extra £ to invest back in the team, no?

Depends on whether infrastructure has real effect on performance.

Or whether ressources driven into infrastructure are in fact liquidity or loan capacity draining the FC for ressources to compete.

I know which one I see in front of us.

 

[NorseYid]

These all compliment the football club turnover though.... not as if they taking FC cash and investing in Bitcoin.

that’s said are the investment revenues separate from FC eg if they make £10m profit from 5 concerts, where does that go?

It doesn't matter if they are taking cash.

The FC generates both liquidity, turnover and interest rating.

All of which can be operationalised into taking strides forward.

We aren't. Once in a while we sign a Sissoko, but that's it.

There is absolutely no ambitions from the football, apart from facilitating the money train participation.

As if we needed further proof, the club was amongst the last to withdraw from ESL and haven¨t interacted at all with the fan community about it.

I see no hope for us, unless ENIC sells by choice.

There has been demo's outside Chelsea and Liverpool, and the Utd fans even occupied the training ground. We're doing nothing. We have accepted ENIC.

 

[NorseYid]

I don't really care, but it this were true you could easily prove it.

You mean apart from underinvesting in players and growth, and channelling all the money into developing real estate and stadium?

It's hillarious.

We are not even a week off the ESL, a cowardly failure amongst which ENICs withdrawal was amongst the latest and least apologetic, yet you are challenging other supporters to "prove" shit.

No. Just no.

 

[Raiders]

You mean apart from underinvesting in players and growth, and channelling all the money into developing real estate and stadium?

It's hillarious.

We are not even a week off the ESL, a cowardly failure amongst which ENICs withdrawal was amongst the latest and least apologetic, yet you are challenging other supporters to "prove" shit.

No. Just no.

They didn't apologise at all. They just regretted we didn't agree with them.