And long may Ted Bundy, Pep Spendiola’s Cone Boy, stay managing the Woolwich Plumstead Kent bottling cnuts franchise
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And long may Ted Bundy, Pep Spendiola’s Cone Boy, stay managing the Woolwich Plumstead Kent bottling cnuts franchise
Was Poch wrong to take a hardline on players too then?
Or just very lucky to have Kane etc come good ?
Not sure how that's the same thing?
Both Poch and Arteta are obsessed with setting a culture at their club. If you have a few bad actors who are going to undermine the culture then it’s better to shoot a few to show the rest that no one is above the team. It can cause short term harm but the whole gamble is that it will pay off in the long term.
I wouldn’t bet against it working for Arteta in the long term. He’s building something much more important than Aubameyang.
Adebayor and Kaboul were both frozen out. There were whispering he wasn’t happy with their attitude and that was a time when he was starting to bring through a host of academy kids.
It’s not a perfect fit for Woolwich right now but there are similarities.
So where does the exact comparison as far as Poch is concerned come into it?
Poch was right to drop Adebayor, Lennon, Capoue, Kaboul from the squad because we had an upturn in performances and attitude and it proved to be the correct decision, he never left the team short though like Arteta is doing now.
The problem Arteta has is that he put all his stock into Aubamayeng, now he looks like an idiot for blanking him
Sssshhhh they'll hear you
Just take a look, in here there are no more than 5 great goals (one of them is against us).
Now for comparison look at his goals for Dortmund, he was devastating. Goals score form all over the pitch, outside the box, running with pace, free kicks, he was for 2 0r 3 seasons simply unplayable, someone that defences would fear.
The comparisons of these two periods are night and day different and that's just born out in the act of goalscoring. He was a total menace at Dortmund, pressing, running the oppo into errors etc.. It's like watching two different players.
I don't know enough about him and the relationship he has with the squad, how influential he actually is etc. But what comes out in the press about him and his constant misdemeanours across now two seasons, he certainly isn't captain material and not someone I would what to build a team ethic around. (Poch did similar with the big personalities at Spurs, backed the young players and outed the experienced bigger players, and none of them were not toeing the line funnily enough that also included Adebayor).
Of cause they need a striker Lacazzette has never lived up to the billing, Martinelli isn't a striker but the closest thing they currently have to Aubamyang in that he's a wide player that comes in off the left. Pepe is shite. It's clear the decision is clear to shift Aubamyang out, they've tried to do this by showing to the outside world that he's an important player (making him captain etc) because maybe they could have got more money for him, they so very nearly sold him to China 2 years ago but that market collapsed and he stayed. So that failed. They are now just doubling down and basically kicking him out. I'd do exactly the same thing.
A manager needs to trust his players whilst fostering a new mentality. Managers also manufacture this environment too (the hasn't done anything wrong but is singled out), usually by sacrificing a big named player as a message to the rest of the squad that no one is above their laws/standards etc.. (the dinosaur made this his raison d'etre).
The majority of stuff you've said here I'm not even arguing against, like I said I don't really care if we was better in Germany or whatever, the fact is that he has proved himself over here by actually scoring goals and being the top scorer in the league twice in a row. The funny thing is that you've compared the player when he played in Germany to the player when he came over here, it's obvious that he was in his prime when he played for Dortmund, he was still good in the Prem before he was handed a new contract and made captain which was all Arteta's doing.
There's obviously a balance on how you deal with things like this, you may not want a player or trust him but if you have a player in your squad which still has some use the best way to manage the situation is play both sides and be diplomatic. Arteta is just a bad man manager who doesn't let things go, he hasn't got the clout like that, he's fallen out with so many players and his track record when it comes to actually managing situations is appaling.
What did Aubameyang actually do anyway? He's had some disciplinary issues where he turned up late and failed to turn up for meetings, is that worth keeping him away from the squad? Their squad went to Dubai for a Winter break and they left him in London, it's utter madness.
Things like ostracising such a player from the squad work if you have a good backup plan, Woolwich don't have a good backup plan.
I think the plan has been to get him out the Club for quite some time. I think in order to maximize the best possible value from a player is to make out that he's your star player and because of such he's not for sale (we did this with Bale really well. Chelsea did this really well with Hazard. Liverpool with Coutinho). I think they failed at achieving this and it's actually compounded their problems with him because they made him Captain etc..
I think they are by far a more dangerous team without him playing than when he's in the team. They are still miles off from being a top side but they accelerate their route to becoming one by getting rid of players like Aubamyang (they should be shifting Lacazzett too but at least he does press the oppo, win FK's high up the pitch and brings others into play).
I look at them and I do see a plan. A plan on how he wants them to play and identity in their play. They are still miles off from succeeding with this though. They take a big jump towards where they want to go by selling him. Obviously, the counter to this would be who they bring in to replace him with, if they bring in another Lacazzette or Pepe then they are fucked and they are struggling to attract said player because they aren't in CL (and haven't been in CL for a while now).
I do think his efforts to create a better culture is where he's made the biggest gains, would appear better at this than his tactical nouse. He absolutely appears to be trying to achieve what Poch did when he first rocked up at Hotspur Way, having the team play better than the sum of their parts.
I don't know if Arteta is capable of doing this, he's been there for a couple of seasons and hasn't exactly pulled up any trees, they appear very much in the same place. But is this because they still have the likes of Lacazzete and Aubamyang still in situ? Had they signed Vlahovic for example that would have pushed the needle in a significant direction required to get top 4.
Some people on here know FAR too much about that lot down the road. Heck, I don't even know half of their names, let alone what position they play!
I know this gif has nothing to do with my post, but I just liked it!
I know this gif has nothing to do with my post, but I just liked it!
Currently they're not though, this is the point I've been making all along
Scored 1 goal in 5 matches this year and out of both cup comps and looking toothless and directionless, yet you've got a proven goalscorer on your books.
I hear the arguement about creating a better culture though but at the expense where it's hurting your team and will most likely cost you top 4 is actually hurting the club, like I said you can create a balance in this situation and be dipomatic, it doesn't have to be as extreme the way Arteta is dealign with it. If Arteta was smart he would have taken him out the team for a few weeks and re-introduced him back in the team at some point and create a narrative to say that he's tried his best with the player so you get the fans and team mates to support you.
For example Tuchel really could have kicked Lukaku out the team but he dealt with it, made him apologise and he moved on, now Lukaku is back in the team and not playing well but the fans are totally behind Tuchel because he's shown that he has dealt with the situation the best way and he still needs Lukaku in his team...If Lukaku doesn't produce then the fans will turn on him, this is smart man management and it's night and day on how Arteta has treated his player.
But they've NEVER finished in the top 4 when he's played - 5th, 5th, 8th & 8th. If his goals had elevated them into a top 4 slot then there's a basis of an argument.Currently they're not though, this is the point I've been making all along
Scored 1 goal in 5 matches this year and out of both cup comps and looking toothless and directionless, yet you've got a proven goalscorer on your books.
I hear the arguement about creating a better culture though but at the expense where it's hurting your team and will most likely cost you top 4 is actually hurting the club, like I said you can create a balance in this situation and be dipomatic, it doesn't have to be as extreme the way Arteta is dealign with it. If Arteta was smart he would have taken him out the team for a few weeks and re-introduced him back in the team at some point and create a narrative to say that he's tried his best with the player so you get the fans and team mates to support you.
For example Tuchel really could have kicked Lukaku out the team but he dealt with it, made him apologise and he moved on, now Lukaku is back in the team and not playing well but the fans are totally behind Tuchel because he's shown that he has dealt with the situation the best way and he still needs Lukaku in his team...If Lukaku doesn't produce then the fans will turn on him, this is smart man management and it's night and day on how Arteta has treated his player.
I think the fans are behind Tuchel because he's won them a CL! I know I would be.
I completely acknowledge that he has to share the blame that's got to this situation but I think they were trying to be clever and create a market for him, create value for him and that massively backfired. Had it been executed right though they could have gotten +£50m to reinvest.
It's now being dealt with. It's a definitive move and won that I think they've got right, unfortunately (if not for this season but for next).
They never finished top 4 because they had players like Mustfi, Kolasniac, Bellerin etc...It's like blaming Kane for us not winning a trophy, he can only do so much if he doesn't have quality around him.
In regards to Tuchel, the fans are behind him because he's an experienced manager who knows what he's doing and in that situation handled it very well and how Arteta should have handled it.
If they were actually thinking that they could have sold Aubamayeng at such a price then that's just poor management, you can't give a player such a massive contract especially at that age then expect to sell him a year later, that's ludicrous again that's all on Arteta - did he not learn from the Ozil situation?
But they still have players like Lacazzete, Holding, Mari, Pepe, Xhaka, Travores, Cedric, Elneny, Chambers etc..
There is a very strong argument that can be had that Kane has got Spurs into 4th multiple times as a result of his play and goals and there's the same argument to be had highlighting individual players in the team that has been achieved in spite of them. (even in the last couple of years when we haven't qualified also it can be argued he's contribution has been such that we've still finished above them). I don't think you can use two different measures between the two, the measure of a teams performance is delivered by where they finish in the league at the end of the season.
Dortmund had agreed on terms with a Club in China before Woolwich signed him. Twice his agents have agreed on terms with clubs in China whilst he's been at Woolwich, the first time result in him securing his new contract and his £350k pw wages!! The second time was the deal they were trying to manufacture, they were very close to getting it done and then the China market collapsed. Fine margins between success and failure.
Every club suffers the same problem when paying massive wages to its players, they aren't contributing to the team then you can't sell them or in many cases even loan them because they aren't worth the salary they receive. I'd argue all day that Woolwich's downfall is routed in them desperately trying to keep up with City, Man U and Chavs (City targeted them and took many of their players) which ended up them offering big salaries on multi-year contracts to players that were supposed to the be next big thing (their "British core") with literally every single one failing and sat on huge contracts whilst doing nothing other than train or lie on the medical room table. They couldn't sell them meant they couldn't bring in others to replace them, which led to them stagnating. They overcompensated by targeting the megastar like Ozil, like Aubamayang thinking this is enough.
But when the culture at the club is off (having players on massive contracts doing absolutely fuck all) it's not conducive to a hardworking team ethos. You have to purge this. I think it's fine if you have a superstar on mega-money that is an example of hard work, that leads the team ethos and sets the example for other that follow. But as we've seen with Kane in the summer just how quickly things can unravel if this still isn't managed effectively (I think Kane is well and truly back to being focused and sharp under Conte). I would have wanted Kane out of the club if he remained in his summer funk we saw under Nuno time here.
Guido 🇺🇦
Sorry, what's your point here?
Sorry what? Why are you making this so difficult, the argument doesn't need mantal gymnastics here...if you have quality players in your team you supplement them with other quality players then the team improves.
You said that they never finished in the top 4 with Aubamayebg so you're imlyaing that it's his fault or he should take a large share of the blame despite being their best and most influential player in the squad....
What are we even arguing here?
I' not sure what you're trying to tell me here but at the end of the day the fault is still on Woolwich for handing him a new contract.
Cool
You said they are fools for not playing him because he scores goals and that by selecting them they are an improvement. I'm saying an improvement on what? Because with him playing there has been NO improvement. They've never finished in the top 4 with him, so wheres the logic to support that playing him now that they will improve and finish in top 4? There isn't any.
Sorry, what's your point here?
Sorry what? Why are you making this so difficult, the argument doesn't need mantal gymnastics here...if you have quality players in your team you supplement them with other quality players then the team improves.
You said that they never finished in the top 4 with Aubamayebg so you're imlyaing that it's his fault or he should take a large share of the blame despite being their best and most influential player in the squad....
What are we even arguing here?
I' not sure what you're trying to tell me here but at the end of the day the fault is still on Woolwich for handing him a new contract.
Cool
I'm going further than that and saying I think they are better today than they were last season, today he's not in the side. They are improved without him.
Yes! It's Woolwhich's fault for handing him a new contract, this isn't even a dispute. I've been arguing beyond this in fact by saying it was their fault for buying him from Doertmund!! Hence the reference to how good he once was at Dortmund to how average he has been at Woolwich, it's like watching two completely different players, it's night and day difference.
I think it's clear you're not reading properly or comprehending what I'm saying, otherwise you wouldn't be asking those questions so let me be very clear:
1 goal in 5 games - team is struggling to score
Lacazette and Nketiah as their only available strikers, neither are good enough
Aubamayeng is clearly an improvement even if you have him in your squad as an option - that's a massive clue to what my argument is, I haven't even advoated that Woolwich should be playing him week in week out, unlike you - I'm saying they should meely put him in the squad which isn't too much to ask.
This is a complete logic failure lol
We've never won the league with Kane ergo we should sell him to give us a better chance, nonsense argument.
Woolwich have never finished in the top 4 with any of the current players in their team either your argument is totally redundant.
Again, listen...this is a totally fair point, I've never disputed that - like I said you can create an enviroment where he's in the squad, not in the first eleven playing week in week out, do you get where I am coming from now?
An irrelevant point to the debate, thanks though.