Jose Mourinho

[Ciro]

Yes, I think Madrid would have been successful no matter what. They were a unit. From 2009-2017 they scored over 100 goals a year in La Liga. Over that period, they averaged 91pts a year. That was under Jose, Carlo, Rafa, and Zidane. The latter three won the CL with Real, Jose didn't.

Jose of course works on the offensive side of the ball. I am not saying he just sits in the back half of the pitch every session, but players have been quoted as saying he isn't the most focused on the side of the pitch. We can see in our teams movement that we are lacking an identity. Watched Leeds on Saturday, they have an attacking identity. They scored 3 against one of the best defensive sides in the league. They don't have our quality, but they played as a unit and tore through that team.

And most would say the best team at Barca was that 08-09 year when they won the treble. Either way, we don't see eye to eye on this subject.

I do appreciate the back and forth though. Everyone has an opinion and we all feel like we are right, but that's the beauty of it, no one is right.

"They were a unit since 2009". Before Jose (2008-09 and 2009-10), even with Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema in the team, Madrid went out of the CL for the sixth season in a row - in the last sixteen! They didn´t present a proper challenge against Barcelona in La Liga since Capello and they were defeated by Alcorón in the Copa del Rey - a competition they couldn't win for over 15 years.

The success that followed Jose´s tenure at Madrid is in large part due to Jose´s work itself, as Florentino Perez would tell you. There is clearly a before and after Jose. By the way, with all the European glory, Madrid won just 2 league titles in 7 seasons after he left.

You do honestly believe that any manager would achieved Jose´s numbers in 2011-12 - a record of points and goals in La Liga's History; again, their first league title since Capello. As you said, we are all entitled to an opinion. Sometimes the facts are on our side, sometimes they don't.

COYS

 

[Maureen]

"They were a unit since 2009". That´s why before Jose (2008-09 and 2009-10), even with Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema in the team in the year before, Madrid were out of CL for six season in a row in the last sixteen, and didn´t present a proper challenge against Barcelona in La Liga - actually, after Jose left, Madrid only won the league twice. 7 seasons, 2 titles.

You honestly believe that any manager would achieve Jose´s numbers, in spite of all the evidences - Jose´s title winning season there was the record of goals scored in La Liga´s history, which should be enough to understand what I´m saying.

As you said, of course, we are all entitled to opinions.

COYS

What relevance does that have to our current team? Jock stein won shed load at Celtic including the European cup with all home grown players went to Leeds and was sacked 40 odd days later. This harping back to RM time is no comparison with what he is takes here to do which is to build and mould a winning team without spending squillions. On the evidence so far for all his huge salary he has failed miserably.

 

[Cravenspurs]

"They were a unit since 2009". That´s why before Jose (2008-09 and 2009-10), even with Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema in the team in the year before, Madrid were out of CL for six season in a row in the last sixteen, and didn´t present a proper challenge against Barcelona in La Liga - actually, after Jose left, Madrid only won the league twice. 7 seasons, 2 titles.

You honestly believe that any manager would achieve Jose´s numbers, in spite of all the evidences - Jose´s title winning season there was the record of goals scored in La Liga´s history, which should be enough to understand what I´m saying.

As you said, of course, we are all entitled to opinions.

COYS

We just aren't going to agree and that is fine.

 

[Maureen]

His record at RM won one fa cup, league title and the charity shield no CL.

 

[Ciro]

This is what Ali G is getting at in his article when he says Ndombele is being conservative. It’s not something you can deny it’s just facts.

I get it, Jose played some amazing, ruthless counter attacking football back when he was at Madrid with arguably the best players in the world, and he did the same with a Chelsea team twice that had unlimited investment.

We literally are fucked every time the opposite team scores first, you can’t keep hanging on to the Jose of old he is not that manager anymore and he has no solid track record of succeeding at clubs with the kinds of budgets we have anyway.

All managers go stale apart from SAF, it’s happened to all of the rest of them. His time has come.

- I disagree entirely with what Alasdair Gold said. He implicates that Jose is taking away the good atributes of Ndombele - clearly, an old narrative about Jose vs talented players. Even if that is the case and Jose is indeed "destroying Ndombele", it just wouldn´t apply to yesterday´s performance. Ndombele came in late in the game (which you could argue it was a mistake). He shouldn´t be playing further up the pitch. The problem was not his positioning, as Ali G is suggesting. The problem was that, at that point, the team was not a team, and the game was lost.

- Chelsea´s 2014-15 season didn´t have unlimited investment. This is something people say thinking in his first tenure there, but the fact is Chelsea sold Mata, De Bruyne and Lukaku, and with that money they got Fabregas, Willian and Costa. In fact, as it´s clear now, they´ve won the title without having the best team in the league - that was City at the time, managed by Pellegrini.

- I´m not hanging on to the Jose of old narrative. I was simply answering to The Athletic article - they were the ones mentioning Diego Torres´book and Jose´s methods at his time at Madrid. I´m perfectly aware that things change, for good and for bad. And, as I said, I think Jose got it all wrong yesterday. I just don´t understand why people search for narratives to criticize Jose, when, again, you can do it simply by stating what he did wrong yesterday - not 10 years ago.

COYS

 

[FightingIllini]

His record at RM won one fa cup, league title and the charity shield no CL.

Winning an FA Cup from Spain is quite a feat.

 

[Ciro]

What relevance does that have to our current team? Jock stein won shed load at Celtic including the European cup with all home grown players went to Leeds and was sacked 40 odd days later. This harping back to RM time is no comparison with what he is takes here to do which is to build and mould a winning team without spending squillions. On the evidence so far for all his huge salary he has failed miserably.

You have to folllow the discussion to understand why the conversation got to this point.

At any moment I said Jose is good now simply because he was good in the past.

 

[Murphy]

If Mourinho fails, it's:

Levy's fault for hiring him
-or-
Levy's fault for not backing him

So either way Mourinho gets to skate it seems. I'm more in the "Levy never should have hired him" camp but let's give him the 14 league games Poch got last season - seems fair.

I’m not digging Jose out here because he made some poor decisions, but if he’s gone after 14 league games, there are TWO constants, the players and Levy.

The players played like they did against Brighton last year. Perhaps they just aren’t good enough now; but that’s on the board and the transfer committee to fix. And not with pound shop buys.

We can blame Covid, and “how hard it is to do a transfer TM” but other clubs are buying players.

We should have been all over Doucoure and Wilson.

 

[Maureen]

Winning an FA Cup from Spain is quite a feat.

You know what I mean I was put the copa del in perspective

 

[Maureen]

You have to folllow the discussion to understand why the conversation got to this point.

At any moment I said Jose is good now simply because he was good in the past.

I don’t why the conversation has got to this point we can judge what we see in the present to see things arnt working as everyone would expected.

 

[Joshking5]

- I disagree entirely with what Alasdair Gold said. He implicates that Jose is taking away the good atributes of Ndombele - clearly, an old narrative about Jose vs talented players. Even if that is the case and Jose is indeed "destroying Ndombele", it just wouldn´t apply to yesterday´s performance. Ndombele came in late in the game (which you could argue it was a mistake). He shouldn´t be playing further up the pitch. The problem was not his positioning, as Ali G is suggesting. The problem was that, at the point, the team was not a team, and the game was lost.

- Chelsea´s 2014-15 season didn´t have unlimited investment. This is something people say thinking in his first tenure there, but the fact is Chelsea sold Mata, De Bruyne and Lukaku, and with that money they got Fabregas, Willian and Costa. In fact, as it´s clear now, they´ve won the title without having the best team in the league - that was City at the time, managed by Pellegrini.

- I´m not hanging on to the Jose of old narrative. I was simply answering to The Athletic article - they were the ones mentioning Diego Torres´book and Jose´s methods at his time at Madrid. I´m perfectly aware that things change, for good and for bad. And, as I said, I think Jose got it all wrong yesterday. I just don´t understand why people search for narratives to criticize Jose, when, again, you can do it simply by stating what he did wrong yesterday - not 10 years ago.

COYS

So taking in to account the facts that he got it wrong yesterday, regularly makes baffling selection decisions (not just in game management like yesterday), serves up a brand of football that most of our fans can’t get on board with and also hasn’t improved any of our players since he’s been here.

Do you still think he is the man for the job? Would you keep him here if it was up to you?

If the answer is yes, what have you seen that gives you hope?

 

[greenmanRD]

Ask yourself: would we be seeing this article if yesterday´s result was different - playing exactly the same style of football? It´s just an opportunistic narrative, they use it every time.

It's a results business and we have to react to the results as they happen. Under Poch we had games we lost at home against teams we were better than/favored against, but our performance was good (or at least much better than Sunday), and people said "doesn't matter how good the performance is if you lose/don't score/etc." We can't then turn it around and say "well what if we just happened to win yesterday? Wouldn't you feel differently?" Of course we would feel differently, but that doesn't make the argument you think it does.

This article from StatsBomb has me concerned for this season, simply because we aren't playing well. This quote in particular:

Mourinho-era metrics don't yet offer solid encouragement, given how variable they have been. Teams with minus expected goal differences and minus shot counts simply don't earn high league positions in this league. The Sporting Index projection has Woolwich and Tottenham in the fifth and sixth slots, but no more than a result or two from below and significantly further away from Chelsea and Manchester United in the backend of the top four. Somewhere in the top four does represent the very best outcome, and a plan realised, but it is not the most likely outcome at all. However, if Tottenham can improve metrics and somehow stay in range of such an outcome deep into the season, all good, if not, then the Mourinho project may founder ahead of any expected three year timeline.

We haven't been playing at the level of peak Poch (15-16 to 17-18) for two years. Many fans think we still have that level of performance, when it hasn't actually happened. Mourinho hasn't shown he can turn this team around yet, and there's good reason to be skeptical that he ever will. Sure, maybe we can win the League Cup or FA Cup, would be great to win the FA Cup especially, but if we do that and finish like 11th, is that really such a great season? Is that really what we signed Mourinho for? I guess in some ways it is, but in some ways it definitely isn't.

There's 37 games to go, hopefully this team plays much better and we can all be happy. But we need to stop the narrative how this is all unfair to Mourinho, sure the circumstances were difficult at times last season, but he had virtually the full squad available for the restart in June, when we had many disappointing performances like Sheffield Utd, Bournemouth, and Everton for example, and he has almost the entire team available now aside from Lo Celso and Tanganga it seems. Mourinho built his whole narrative on being a winner, so when he isn't winning anymore, it's obviously going to lead to some concern about his ability as a whole.

 

[FightingIllini]

We haven't been playing at the level of peak Poch (15-16 to 17-18) for two years.

We used to be so good

 

[Ciro]

So taking in to account the facts that he got it wrong yesterday, regularly makes baffling selection decisions (not just in game management like yesterday), serves up a brand of football that most of our fans can’t get on board with and also hasn’t improved any of our players since he’s been here.

Do you still think he is the man for the job? Would you keep him here if it was up to you?

If the answer is yes, what have you seen that gives you hope?

First of all, I disagree that he hasn´t improved any of our players. You might not like some of the players, that´s a different story - but it doesn´t mean that Jose hasn´t improved them.

Just for an example, Aurier. I don´t like him, I would prefer if he was sold (if we could sign someone for backup FB, obviously). But are you really denying that he just had the best season of his career under Jose?

What about Lucas? Again, it´s ok if you don´t like him, but after the break he´s been one of our best players. Do you honestly disagree with the fact that he has improved under Jose?

About Jose being the man for the job, only time will tell. Klopp needed two and a half years to build Liverpool. It´s perfectly reasonable to think Jose is not the man for the job; I won´t try to convince you otherwise - there was not enough time to respond to this question based on simple facts. Exactly for that reason, I ask you in return: do you really think Jose is not the manager for Tottenham based on half of a season and one full match after half of a pre-season?

 

[Allejo10]

Yesterday was the starting of the new season, he got two players he wanted, had the time to work his strategy, to fix problems with the players but what we saw was a shitshow, one of the worse matches I've seen in my life. We didn't have an strategy, he keeps on starting players that aren't good enough and out of position, we don't have an attacking plan, for times it seems we want to play counter attack but plays some players slow as fuck that ruins that, we also lack creativity to play in another way and he keeps on benching the creative players. A total mess of a team, I really can't understand what he's trying to do with the team.

 

[Clynelish]

We used to be so good

And yet won fuck all, criminal.

 

[Knobs22]

Once again we couldn’t break a team down in the final third when they sat back a bit. Really hope Jose has a solution this season because it is beyond frustrating to watch...

 

[greenmanRD]

And yet won fuck all, criminal.

Well if it's any consolation we aren't playing well and also probably not going to win anything.

 

[halothagod]

Jose keeps instructing our ball playing midfielder (winks/Ndombele) to be deepest in the pivot, where as Hojberg is told to roam, hunt down the ball and even join attacks at times. He was also doing it with Lo Celso as the deepest midfielder last season partnered with sissoko at times.

This is what Ali G is getting at in his article when he says Ndombele is being conservative. It’s not something you can deny it’s just facts.

I get it, Jose played some amazing, ruthless counter attacking football back when he was at Madrid with arguably the best players in the world, and he did the same with a Chelsea team twice that had unlimited investment.

But you have to face facts, he is not adapting his philosophy to this team. He has no fresh new ideas or solutions and the team look like strangers whenever they reach the final 3rd.

We literally are fucked every time the opposite team scores first, you can’t keep hanging on to the Jose of old he is not that manager anymore and he has no solid track record of succeeding at clubs with the kinds of budgets we have anyway.

All managers go stale apart from SAF, it’s happened to all of the rest of them. His time has come.

Really? How many times did the lads come back from losing positions last season? There is literally a documentary about it on Amazon.

Embarrassing how people go apocalyptic after a loss. Go and read the threads after Sheffield Utd. Team was shocking, they lost, they know it’s got to be better. End of.

 

[greenmanRD]

Really? How many times did the lads come back from losing positions last season?

Not very often and when we did it was not against anyone good. We beat Brighton 2-1 after trailing 1-0, we drew Norwich 2-2 after trailing 1-0, and we beat Aston Villa 3-2 after trailing 1-0. I think that's it for Mourinho in terms of PL games we trailed and then got something out of.

EDIT - We also drew Burnley 1-1 after trailing 1-0, but they also aren't any good either.