Levy / ENIC

[Deuterz]

But we do sign top players, and have done.

Lloris, Jan, Toby, Eriksen, Son, Dembele, Rose, Walker were all top players we found by looking below the highest profile tiers.

We could never have bought Mbappe. He was out of our price range.

In short, we need to continue to be shrewd, because any player who the entire world recognizes would instantly improve us is going to have 50-100m more than we can afford thrown at them by someone other than us.

This was just good scouting, it doesn't represent proof of us being an elite club who can go in to the market and sign top players now. We could be mid-table and acquire Dembele, he was playing for Fulham and considered fun to watch but ineffective.

And there's a big gap between top player and Mbappe. I'm still waiting for this apparent huge rise in our stock to lead to us spending like one of the elite clubs.

 

[Datzlo]

This was just good scouting, it doesn't represent proof of us being an elite club who can go in to the market and sign top players now.

Because we still don't have the money to compete for superstars. Let's say we went all in for Vlahovic, but as we do City decide to swoop in with 40m extra and 250k a week?

There's only one way that ends. Clever scouting is still our primary method, and with a great coach like Poch to work with it gave us a squad that was 90 mins away from being champions of Europe.

We did it before, and can do it again.

We could be mid-table and acquire Dembele, he was playing for Fulham and considered fun to watch but ineffective.

And there's a big gap between top player and Mbappe. I'm still waiting for this apparent huge rise in our stock to lead to us spending like one of the elite clubs.

Because it hasn't happened yet. We do need to get over the finish line to start trading on our reputation the way Bayern, Barca or Liverpool can do. Yes we need trophies to become a truly elite club in the way you describe.

I just don't consider it a failure of the ENIC project that we haven't quite got there yet. I see it as echoes of glory, while we keep pushing and competing with the giants around us.

 

[Deuterz]

Because we still don't have the money to compete for superstars. Let's say we went all in for Vlahovic, but as we do City decide to swoop in with 40m extra and 250k a week?

There's only one way that ends. Clever scouting is still our primary method, and with a great coach like Poch to work with it gave us a squad that was 90 mins away from being champions of Europe.

We did it before, and can do it again.



Because it hasn't happened yet. We do need to get over the finish line to start trading on our reputation the way Bayern, Barca or Liverpool can do. Yes we need trophies to become a truly elite club in the way you describe.

I just don't consider it a failure of the ENIC project that we haven't quite got there yet. I see it as echoes of glory, while we keep pushing and competing with the giants around us.

This is still us operating as a tier 2 club. Which is fine, but we charge tier 1 prices and have the trophy cabinet under ENIC of a mid-table PL side. I'm fine with us not shopping for superstars but when people tell me ENIC have raised our profile to the point where we can sign top players, and then those people are mentioning Dembele and Toby, it all seems a bit false.

ENIC have clearly succeeded in some departments, but when it comes to delivering on what most football fans want, that's where they've missed out. The stuff like financial stability, property portfolios, a great modern stadium etc .. this is all very secondary to fans. Maybe you're right and we make that next step, but it feels like the ceiling will always be a top 4 side with regular semi finals and a final once in a while.

 

[FightingIllini]

This is still us operating as a tier 2 club. Which is fine, but we charge tier 1 prices and have the trophy cabinet under ENIC of a mid-table PL side. I'm fine with us not shopping for superstars but when people tell me ENIC have raised our profile to the point where we can sign top players, and then those people are mentioning Dembele and Toby, it all seems a bit false.

Especially when there's a huge timeline problem there. We signed all of those examples before a brick had been laid on the new stadium or before a single one of Poch's Champions League nights.

Levy defenders are going to yada yada Summer 2018, but we can leave that fundamental problem to one side.

Summer 2019 we went for it. Ndombele and Lo Celso, expensive class players on the up, cornerstones, big fees, etc.

Well, we fucking blew it. Shit happens, that's life. Levy's not a football scout, that's not on him.

And yet, Steve Hitchen is still here leading our scouting department. And, we appear unwilling to be that daring again. We signed Romero, sure, but left other work undone.

The excuses can always be rolled over to the next transfer window in this sport, but if we lose Conte (or even if we don't with the squad the way it is) that bill is going to come due. It did under Nuno and that was a preview of what's just going to come inevitably back.

 

[Datzlo]

This is still us operating as a tier 2 club. Which is fine, but we charge tier 1 prices and have the trophy cabinet under ENIC of a mid-table PL side. I'm fine with us not shopping for superstars but when people tell me ENIC have raised our profile to the point where we can sign top players, and then those people are mentioning Dembele and Toby, it all seems a bit false.

I don't recall anyone saying our profile was raised to where we could attract world class players, but speaking for myself I think what we did was raise our profile to where we could attract top talent that had been overlooked, or where the circumstances were in our favor.

By contrast, take a look at some of the top players signed by others ahead of us. Woolwich spent big on Ozil, Sanchez, Auba, Pepe and Partey. These were marquee signings on big wages to match their profile. And what do ever hear from goons? They're not good enough, lazy, overpaid flops who are not fit to wash the floors of their club. Some of these players were on our radar but had their heads turned by cash.

United too routinely spend big, but with little direction. For all the millions pumped into that squad they have little to show for it other than having finished 2nd last season, after yoyoing in and out of the Top 4 ever since Fergie retired. Many of those signings we were competing for, and they might have had a better result if they came to us.

Chelsea are guilty of it too. For every great purchase like Jorginho or Kante, there's a Lukaku who would have done so much better if he had chosen us and partnered Kane.

But because we didnt have the money, we didn't get those players.

I agree that if we had the money we could attract huge names. There's just no guarantee of success that way, and the reality is that we dont have that money. So rather than lament or blame ENIC for not being Abramovic I think we should be a little more grateful that in a sea of cash flooding from our rivals, we're still in a position where we can bounce back into the Top 4 and give the Poch-era goals another try.

ENIC have clearly succeeded in some departments, but when it comes to delivering on what most football fans want, that's where they've missed out. The stuff like financial stability, property portfolios, a great modern stadium etc .. this is all very secondary to fans. Maybe you're right and we make that next step, but it feels like the ceiling will always be a top 4 side with regular semi finals and a final once in a while.

Again, I weigh our ambitions as a European heavyweight against winning an FA Cup. Of course I want to win it, and would bounce around in joy if we did, but I think valuing one over a sustained presence at the top tier of football is ultimately a small club mentality.

Laughing stock of the league? Not compared to the scum, and largely because we don't behave like entitled brats the way they do. Don't confuse the media's love for Woolwich with respect from fans.

 

[FightingIllini]

our ambitions as a European heavyweight

a sustained presence at the top tier of football

You can't just say things like this with one breath and then slag off demands for trophies with another.

European heavyweights at the top tier of football win things, period, even if sheikhs and oligarchs are in their way.

We're a European middleweight and we're lighter than we were five years ago.

 

[Datzlo]

You can't just say things like this with one breath and then slag off demands for trophies with another.

But I'm not slagging off desire for trophies. I'm saying that not managing to win then against super rich competition is not a failure of the project.

European heavyweights at the top tier of football win things, period, even if sheikhs and oligarchs are in their way.

Only Bayern really prove your point, and they have a league dominance unparalleled in world football.

Everyone else, from PSG to Madrid, from Chelsea to City, all do so thanks to absurd amounts of money.

We're a European middleweight and we're lighter than we were five years ago.

Perhaps we are. But if so it's because we found a great group of players, a great coach for them and built the best stadium the land for them to play in.

Those players aged and moved on, the coach lost his mojo after the CL heartbreak, and our stadium costs limited our ability to invest. I still agree Levy should have spent to aid Poch in 2018, but it's not a weak excuse on his part to point to lack of money at the time.

Now we have another great coach, a world class one in fact, a squad that is starting to realize the potential it has, and a new long-term loan deal to pay for the stadium freeing up money for transfers.

Personally I think we're in a good place, if we can capitalize on the coach and the star players we still have with good signings.

Yes, a sugar daddy owner would put us in an even better financial position. I just dont agree that ENIC are failing us terribly in what they've built, considering they're not a sugar daddy.

 

[FightingIllini]

super rich competition

absurd amounts of money.

If that's what it means to be a European heavyweight and at the top tier of the sport than so be it.

But then necessarily that's not ENIC's aim.

Which matters for both the rhetorical flourish and the meat and potatoes substance of your argument.

built the best stadium the land for them to play in.

We built the stadium to make the money to afford better players, not to put a better house around the ones we have.

 

[FightingIllini]

Important chart here, haven't seen Swiss Ramble add the transfer fee amortization (wages + amortization is the actuarially correct way to look at squad spending) to the PL table before:

 

[Datzlo]

If that's what it means to be a European heavyweight and at the top tier of the sport than so be it.

But then necessarily that's not ENIC's aim.

I think it's always been the aim. I think it's just extremely difficult to achieve, especially when over that same period both Abramovic and Mansour changed the landscape of the league.

Imagine if that hadn't happened. Do you really think our trajectory wouldn't have resulted in more success?

We built the stadium to make the money to afford better players, not to put a better house around the ones we have.

Yes, and since we did we have spent on higher transfer fees. But don't discount the value of 60k people cheering them on instead of 35k.

 

[Steve73]

I don't think a single one of those names is that high profile, or are signings we couldn't possibly have made beforehand. It's players from Southampton or Fulham, or tier 2 clubs on the continent like Lyon, Ajax or Atalanta. Good signings but nobody who was some in his prime talent who top clubs wanted but we were able to muscle in and get.

Yeah, Conte is great. But he's also here because top clubs were reportedly wary of him after his bust up with 2 clubs. He threw a tantrum at Chelsea & Inter so clubs like United steered clear, and we took advantage of that. He's a big acquisition, we've shown ambition to sign top managers but not top players because they cost far more money. Oh and Jose had no top club to turn to when he joined us, he'd burned so many bridges and clubs were no longer willing to put up with the bullshit as his magic had worn off. His last two clubs had sacked him.


Ok, so we're in a great position, thanks Levy. Now how much stick does he get for not pushing on when we were in great positions under Pochettino? How much stick does he get for the club being less successful silverware wise than Wigan under his stewardship? It's not just bad recruitment, we're the laughing stock of the league and considered serial bottlers by rival fans because of our lack of ability to win something, fucking anything.


An FA cup would mean a hell of a lot to this fanbase. Or a Europa League title, or even a league cup. Something for the fans to celebrate which is real and permanent, rather than just celebrating competing or a healthy financial state.

I take your point on the players not being the most highly desired in world football but they were better than they had been when we weren't a top 6 side - take a look at our level in the late 90s and early 2000s to compare.

I think you're reaching a bit re Conte and Jose, United didn't take him because they were stupid and their execs are hardly the barometer when it comes to wise footballing decisions. Jose still had his reputation intact post United which is why we went for him and he accepted. Both managers would've been out of our reach before our sustained league position, title challenge and CL final run. I don't think that's really disputable if you take an honest look at us in the early to mid 2000s.

Of course he gets stick and plenty of it well deserved, our recruitment has been piss poor since we signed Son and he is ultimately responsible for that. We've spent plenty but it's been wasted by and large, not disputing that or suggesting Levy hasn't made some major mistakes, not sure anyone is. We'd all like some silverware, we're all fans of the club but Wigan winning a cup sort of proves my point - they haven't spent what we have, have no profile now to speak of and yet they won a cup in the process. Suggests it's all a bit flukey really doesn't it. Who'd seriously swap places with them? Personally couldn't give a fuck what other fans say, doesn't bother me in the slightest. Winning a cup would be great but fans who don't like us will just find other ways to slag us off. I'm way past caring about that stuff.

I haven't mentioned finances once in relation to this discussion so pointless you bringing it up with me. My argument is purely that sustained top end league finishes have raised the profile of the club and helped us attract more expensive and ultimately better playing and coaching staff. I'll caveat the playing side by acknowledging that our recruitment in recent years has been piss poor but I put this down to poor scouting as a result of badly structuring the footballing side of things. Levy gets the blame for that quite rightly but he gave Poch players he wanted in Ndom, Sanchez, Serge and Lo Celso as an example. We spent over £160m in the process, a small fortune in wages and have had a piss poor return. Shit transfers yes but due to shit scouting ultimately. Levy for all his many faults doesn't want this of course, why would he? My biggest frustration along with high ticket prices and his constantly changing the club structure (and in Jose's case the club DNA) is our failure to scout players properly. If we'd done it better we'd have won some trophies AND been a big player in the league.

 

[Datzlo]

Don't do it to yourselves. I stuck Datzlo on ignore after his first or second post. Obvious from the very start that he was not worth engaging with.

It wasn't my first or second post. It was me saying that Inter would do well to play Eriksen more and then they would win the title.

Which they then did. My reactions ratio suggests that far from considering me a nuisance, many seem to find value in my contributions.

You've just been nothing more than an insufferable prick this entire time, never once explaining any disagreement with what I say, only ever chiming in whenever I am having a productive exchange with someone else just to signal to others that you don't approve of talking to me, even though I did literally nothing to you.

I am going to assume either I slept with your mother, or I made you look stupid on Dear Mr Levy, and you've been butthurt about it ever since, but whatever the source of your little vendetta, you're absolutely pathetic and nothing more than a cheap bully heckling posters from the shadows.

Get a life.

 

[Spurvacious]

Don't do it to yourselves. I stuck Datzlo on ignore after his first or second post. Obvious from the very start that he was not worth engaging with.

I see. Cheers. By the way, how are you commenting on his posts when you've got him on ignore?

 

[Pzabbythethird]

We have been categorically unwilling to spend at the level that would reach the upper limit of players willing to play for us, which blunts the impact of our investments in facilities. Definitely a worthy critique of the ENIC strategy.

Why are we willing to spare no expense for the Spurs Lodge but not for its occupants?

The occupants tend to depreciate as assets. The structure appreciates. That's all Levy sees.

 

[Dr Rocktopus]

I see. Cheers. By the way, how are you commenting on his posts when you've got him on ignore?

Because you can see posts responding to him, genius.

 

[NorseYid]

I get what you're saying in terms of honours.

But if you've finished 5th you've enjoyed a heck of a lot more wins than finishing 17th. And ultimately football is about enjoying the matches.

I COMPLETELY agree about that.

Unfortunately, that is NOT what ENIC are preaching. They are preaching "ambition" and pricing us accordingly. Which is 100% bullshit.

Which is why I am benching them from THEIR standard, not mine.

 

[NorseYid]

You know what I need a rant....

I'm in no way an ENIC or Levy apologist, let us be completely clear on that.

However, I genuinely wish that the Spurs fans who constantly whine, moan and greet their eyes out over the ownership would just fuck off. You are worse than, more odious than they will ever be.

Fuck off and support City or Liverpool. Or PSG. Just get yourselves to fuck.

I don't know how long you've supported this club, but I would much rather be in the position we're in now than the day they took over. We were a mess of a club, going absolutely nowhere. Constant bottom half finishes. Dross manager after dross manager. Players like Gary Doherty, Moussa Saib and Chris Perry. We'd won two cups in nearly 2 decades before Enic. We've won one in their two decades, which isn't good enough of course, but hardly a stick to beat them with, given the two decades before.

They've built an amazing infrastructure. We've witnessed some great years with genuinely good teams. They've fell short at the final hurdle, how many times? That's not all on the board.

They have been tight with money at times, there's no doubt, but they've also backed managers more than some like to admit.

The Bale money, all back into the squad. Just a shame it was mostly wasted. Spent big on Tanguy and Gio lately. Same with Sanchez.

You're just a bunch of entitled wanks, who seem to have no idea where they have taken us as a club. They are far from perfect, but it could have been much worse.

Are they beyond criticism? - Are they hell, but the levels of abuse and the like are way beyond the reality.

So, once again, if you're not happy, go to fuck and start supporting Liverpool or something.

You are completely out of line here, fella.

 

[Furball man]

Available from the ENIC club shop , just £53.99

 

[Furball man]

You are completely out of line here, fella.

It’s pretty ridiculous that if you’re not happy with the owners , someone says support another club. It’s basically saying the owners are more important that the football club itself

 

[NorseYid]

It’s pretty ridiculous that if you’re not happy with the owners , someone says support another club. It’s basically saying the owners are more important that the football club itself

Well, the go-support-another-club is always per se out of line.

But you are right. The entire pro-ENIC argument by now is built on the premise, that the company part of the THFC is more important than the FC.