Saving private Ryan

[Juicy Sushi]

Great. Still doesn't answer my question of how Windy gets stats that dispute reality though

Which stats does he cite that dispute reality? If he cites "player x ran y km's", you can ask him for a source, and then judge the source (although distances run are pretty easily and consistently tracked). If you want to get into an argument over who was MotM based on who you felt contributed more, that has nothing to do with stats, regardless of what any particular person cites, since so much of that is generally based on the eye test (although that can be wrong).

 

[WindyCOYS]

TBH Ive only read about 10 of your tweets. I only have one experience of you saying that Mason was the MOTM when Eriksen clearly was. Ive probably misjudged you, but I still doubt any of the stats you quote. Where are they from?

They're all from Opta (via various sites/apps).

 

[Burko]

Great post Juicy Sushi . I think there are a lot of 'stat deniers' in the world of football because of a lack of understanding and also lack of confidence in people using stats appropriately.

Some people seem to think stats come in and trump what the average fan can see. Fact is, stats are (or should be) used to supplement what a good analyst has already picked up on.

Any stats can be misused, of course, but used well they can help to create a strong argument which can be used to create a case for or against one element of coaching/management/etc.

The problem with stats is that no-one changes their opinion because of them, they manipulate them to prove their existing view.

People generally either place too much belief in them, or none at all. There needs to be a balance.

For example someone could aimlessly run up and down the wing never touching the ball or affecting the game yet still cover more ground that everyone else. Someone somewhere would claim that they were the hardest worker in the team as they covered the most distance.

 

[78Spur]

From what I have heard/seen from Windy (podcast listener, not Twitter user) he does not run for stats as a first line of judging a player. He gives a fairly rounded opinion on players, their potential and how our junior/reserve teams are taking shape.

Stats in general are a bit dangerous as a rule, we can make statistics fit most arguments that sit within a narrative. They can provide an insight but they can't change what you saw.

A stat will tell you how accurate a players passing is, but it won't tell you whether the pass was a safe, non descript, sort of 'maintain possession' function or a defence splitting pass that lead to something exciting. For example, Vinny Samways hardly ever lost possession, Ginola would give away the ball way too easily sometimes, yet one we worship, the other we try to forget!

 

[Juicy Sushi]

The problem with stats is that no-one changes their opinion because of them, they manipulate them to prove their existing view.

People generally either place too much belief in them, or none at all. There needs to be a balance.

For example someone could aimlessly run up and down the wing never touching the ball or affecting the game yet still cover more ground that everyone else. Someone somewhere would claim that they were the hardest worker in the team as they covered the most distance.

Some do. Some base their opinion off what the stats say. It depends on if you start with a statement, or a question. Sort of like, "find stuff which proves player x was the MotM" vs "what did player x do in the match? How does that compare to everyone else?"

We're in hypotheticals and strawmen here, which aren't Windy's responsibility to defend.

 

[Burko]

Some do. Some base their opinion off what the stats say. It depends on if you start with a statement, or a question. Sort of like, "find stuff which proves player x was the MotM" vs "what did player x do in the match? How does that compare to everyone else?"

We're in hypotheticals and strawmen here, which aren't Windy's responsibility to defend.

There isn't anything he needs to defend.

My point is simply that people will not use stats to disprove their own point, they will disregard them.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

There isn't anything he needs to defend.

My point is simply that people will not use stats to disprove their own point, they will disregard them.

Some do, some don't, it depends on what you're using data for.

Although I think the stats I'm talking about are rather different from the ones you mean.

 

[Burko]

Some do, some don't, it depends on what you're using data for.

Although I think the stats I'm talking about are rather different from the ones you mean.

I mean any kind of stat, in any line of business.

Facts are facts and cant be changed, but stats can be manipulated and altogether ignored if it suits.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

I mean any kind of stat, in any line of business.

Facts are facts and cant be changed, but stats can be manipulated and altogether ignored if it suits.

Of course they can. But a blanket assumption that everyone is always doing that, and so all stats should be written off is also incorrect.

I am not saying you do that.

There are good uses of stats in football, and many more bad uses. The papers and TV coverage are emphatically into misuse of data, but that's hardly a surprise.

In any event, this seems to be wandering a long way from the original discussion of Ryan Mason's merits as a player, and his contribution to the current team, or even later discussion of the validity of Windy using stats to discuss what players do.

 

[Thelonious]

In any event, this seems to be wandering a long way from the original discussion of Ryan Mason's merits as a player, and his contribution to the current team, or even later discussion of the validity of Windy using stats to discuss what players do.

 

[Aussie Ardiles]

Wait Windy isn't Ryan Mason?

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Christ, anyone but Cage, man.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Wait Windy isn't Ryan Mason?

Not enough thigh-tattoos.

 

[Aussie Ardiles]

Not enough thigh-tattoos.

Does hate Jack Wilshere though #conspiracytheory

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Does hate Jack Wilshere though #conspiracytheory

 

[JeremyPaxton]

They're all from Opta (via various sites/apps).

Fair enough, I found this unbelievable,
"in an improving Tottenham squad he boasts the most sprints and tackles, the highest percentage of forward passes, as well as the furthest distance run. "
But squawka agrees with you on the % of forward passes (89%, that's impressive).
I can't find any data on who has the most sprints.
Squawka says that Mason has successfully made 28 tackles with a 51% success rate, Danny Rose has successfully made 40 tackles with a 50% success rate. Along with 42 interceptions, 63 clearances and five blocks.
My main issue was with 'furthest distance run' as it has been widely reported that Eriksen has covered more distance than any other BPL player.

 

[Jayc1]

Squawka says that Mason has successfully made 28 tackles with a 51% success rate, Danny Rose has successfully made 40 tackles with a 50% success rate. Along with 42 interceptions, 63 clearances and five blocks.

He probably means average per game, not total sum.

Rose has played all season. Mason hasn't.

 

[JeremyPaxton]

He probably means average per game, not total sum.

Rose has played all season. Mason hasn't.

Rose - 19 BPL appearances.
Mason - 18 BPL appearances.

Your maths don't work

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Fair enough, I found this unbelievable,
"in an improving Tottenham squad he boasts the most sprints and tackles, the highest percentage of forward passes, as well as the furthest distance run. "
But squawka agrees with you on the % of forward passes (89%, that's impressive).
I can't find any data on who has the most sprints.
Squawka says that Mason has successfully made 28 tackles with a 51% success rate, Danny Rose has successfully made 40 tackles with a 50% success rate. Along with 42 interceptions, 63 clearances and five blocks.
My main issue was with 'furthest distance run' as it has been widely reported that Eriksen has covered more distance than any other BPL player.

Sprints and total distance are usually broken out separately, since they're two different things.

 

[Jayc1]

Rose - 19 BPL appearances.
Mason - 18 BPL appearances.

Your maths don't work

Ryan Mason - 19 games total
Danny Rose - 22 games total

Fair enough, Rose hasn't played too many more games, but he has played more.

Fails to answer my point the the stat is probably based on average, not sum total. Stat about tackles can be found Here

Mason on 3.3 tackles a game. Rose on 2.5.